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...MC said that she needed to believe both of us for her to do her job.

I know this has been addressed, but I'm posting to emphasize my belief this MC doesn't understand her role. There's a big difference between accepting your W's words as her reality and accepting them as the truth. And no one with any sense believes someone who has at best just come out of a period of lying to everyone.

You describe your goal for MC as keeping your W out of her shame spiral so she can talk about her A. What has kept you from achieving that goal? Is your W still the obstacle? Is it the MC's support for your W that's the obstacle?

I'll say this: our MC started and continued as my W's IC. She recommended a guy who became my IC for a while. Both of them told my W that if she wanted to R (as she said she did), her best and possibly only bet was to answer every question I asked (except for those that violated a legal boundary).

In MC, we often - sometimes several times in a session - showed we had different views of events. Our MC almost always treated my version as more accurate. She was right to do so, and I believe my W agrees our MC was right.

MC can be helpful early in recovery. If you think your MC isn't helping, you've got enough info to dump her now. If you want to give her another chance to help you achieve your goal, discuss it with her, and see how she responds.

And of course you can tell her how to do her job - you're paying, and you set the goals. If she can't or won't help you, something needs to change.

My husband is a recovering alcoholic. He thinks it’s unnecessary to put this descriptor on it, but I think it’s important to note that he has not had a drop to drink since the day after DDay and I am always proud of him. At the time of my affair, he was what would be considered a functioning alcoholic.

I made his drinking problem about me. I felt that since he only drank once he got home that he needed to be drunk to be around me. It never even occurred to me that he drank because he had his own issues and insecurities he was dealing with. I actually thought when I started going to Al-Anon that it would be a lot of discussion about the alcoholic in our lives. What I learned is that it was a whole lot of accountability for my own feelings and actions. I really wish I had found Al-Anon prior to my A. I don’t think I would be here. So much of what I learned there, paired with what I learned here was life changing.

I understand that it does not fit into everyone’s scenario, but it made a pretty big impact and I feel it’s important to mention in my own journey.

So we talked about it today, and MC said that she needed to believe both of us for her to do her job.

I think there is some truth to this. This is why A marriage counsellor is not a police investigator or a jurist whose job it is to weigh and evaluate the truth. While it may be their job, to help you dig into or challenge WHY you believe what you believe or why you feel what you feel, they don’t really have any choice but to take what you say at face value. It seems antithetical to a therapeutic relationship (which is supposed to build trust, and create room for vulnerability), for a therapist to accuse a patient of lying (especially in the early stages of therapy).

I don’t mean to be dismissive of your feelings or suspicions on this InkHulk. I think YOU are smart for questioning motives and being apprehensive about taking your wife’s statements at face value at this time. I also agree that a marriage counsellor is supposed to be impartial and that it seems like your (valid) concerns here were very much dismissed, in the interest of protecting your wife from shame (again). That is not okay. It does not seem like she handled your concerns properly.

I *DO* think a lot of the issue here has to do with the WAY you are purporting to utilize marriage counselling (ie. for the purpose of disclosure). My experience was that the disclosure stage necessarily involved a lot of cross-examination and a challenging of facts and intent and motives. In my case, this was done extensively BEFORE we began MC, and while it continued to some extent later and throughout (processing takes time), my husband and I were at least able to work off the same page on how to define the issues by the time we entered MC. I agree with ThisisFine when he says that MC only works if you have two honest dealers. I also agree with straightup when he says that therapy has its limits and its not about getting the truth, its about gaining additional insight.

I have said it to you before and I’m about to say it again. You cannot properly deal with the enormity of this in one hour a week. You need to be able to have these conversations at home.. constantly. You are 9 months out. The clock is ticking. Damage is still accruing and your healing, like your MC sessions, keeps getting derailed. You are frustrated with your MC for taking your wife’s word for it and not making her dig into it. I wonder if that frustration would be better directed at your wife for her unwillingness to dig into it on her own.

Also,

There's a big difference between accepting your W's words as her reality and accepting them as the truth.

I think Sisoon is right on this too. Would it have sat better with you had the MC described it as something other than "the truth". I can imagine that the MC may not have recalled her specific wording after the fact. I wonder if the conversation would have gone differently had it been addressed in the moment.

Lurkingsoul – I don’t want a semantic debate on the definition of "malicious" as by now this feels like a threadjack, but specific words have specific meanings and it is important to use words correctly to properly convey what you mean (particularly when there are so many people here reading those words to help process their own feelings and thought process). I am in no way trying to exculpate a Wayward from fault, or minimize the harm that is caused by affairs. I believe that the word malicious, by definition involves intent to harm. So if you agree that the Wayward didn’t INTEND harm (which it sounds like you do), it makes more sense to describe the acts as pernicious, destructive, devastating, catastrophic, etc. (or even knowingly pernicious, destructive,… etc) rather than as "malicious acts". The former are all words that describe EFFECT rather than INTENT.

I get it. The pain and devastation caused by infidelity is so personal and intimate and acute that it FEELS like it was a direct attack on us. The most difficult and useful thing that I’ve come to realize in my healing however is that IT WAS NOT ABOUT ME.

Nothing I’ve said was meant to suggest that I believe InkHulk’s wife is being fully truthful regarding her motive here. I actually think that the likelihood that she is still in self-preservation mode about this is quite high. We know she struggles greatly with shame and I imagine that for someone like that, whose identity is very much wrapped up in motherhood, admitting, even to herself, that she involved her children in her A, is a difficult thing to come to terms with.

InkHulk,

I was going to quote bits of your response to me but I am not sure which one I'd quote, so I will just summarize my thoughts.

The reason for my choice of words "bend a lot" is that, at least on here, you often take a conciliatory tone towards your WW. You tend to use lot of analogies and descriptions that paint your WW as a lost soul of sorts. And so in my posts I find myself bringing up that no, I don't agree with you that your WW is just a lost soul, that I think there is evil on the part of your WW and her actions. (You do however seem to be expressing to your WW, your anger and insisting that the both of you hash out specific details of your WW's affair to your satisfaction, whether or not you are defending her on here.)

My sense of how justice should be served is probably much closer to that recommended in The Old Testament than The New Testament. I respect that your view is different from mine. That said, the amount of "bending" you'd have to do to R with your WW, seems to me to be....quite high indeed. I mean, I get some are pro-R, but your WW's affair was even worse than most on here. I am just not seeing how your WW will ever have it in her to be a safe partner. With that said though, I respect that R is your first choice. I would make sure that your WW wants to recover because of YOU however. If you and your WW were ever to get divorced, you would have no problem finding a high-quality partner. Your WW....well not so much. I can't imagine a high-quality man taking his chances on a woman who was adulterous in her last relationship. You better believe that your WW is aware that her prospects should you and she split, are rather grim.

RE what your WW said to your MC...she is NOT being truthful, she is merely covering her ass. And shame on MC for not allowing that WW may be lying!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:58 PM, Thursday, April 6th]

Emergent: I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said. I didn't imply that you were minimizing the harm OP's wife has brought in his life. I agree with you on the definition of malicious act. And, yes, I should be careful with the terms I use. I apologize for that. I was only saying that WW's claim that her acts of involving her children in her secret liasons is not an innocent coincidence or stupid mistake. She knew what she was doing but she just didn't care. She now needs to own what she has done to have any real progress here. Owning is the first step towards desired change.

Lurking - Sounds like we're on the same page.

You describe your goal for MC as keeping your W out of her shame spiral so she can talk about her A. What has kept you from achieving that goal? Is your W still the obstacle? Is it the MC's support for your W that's the obstacle?

The main thing that has kept us from our goal is time in the sessions getting diverted to other things. Might be a fight we have had, there has been some strategy sessions. This week was supposed to be devoted to it and then it got derailed with this disaster. My W seems to be able to tolerate getting thru it in sessions, we just need to actually use the time for that.

And of course you can tell her how to do her job - you're paying, and you set the goals. If she can't or won't help you, something needs to change.

I wouldn’t walk into a doctor’s office and tell her what to do. I would present my issue and trust that she has some skill to help me. I think this is similar, but it doesn’t mean I need to shut my brain off.

I understand that it does not fit into everyone’s scenario, but it made a pretty big impact and I feel it’s important to mention in my own journey.

Thank you for sharing so openly.

It seems antithetical to a therapeutic relationship (which is supposed to build trust, and create room for vulnerability), for a therapist to accuse a patient of lying (especially in the early stages of therapy).

I can see that, but to Sisoon’s point, you don’t have to externally label something as true to avoid accusing someone of lying. I think it would make way the hell more sense for MC to have said something like "Mrs InkHulk, can you understand why IH has doubts? Is there anything you can add to help him believe you?" Maybe not even the last part. I just don’t want my wife to be able to point back and say "the MC said I was telling the truth so shove it".

I don’t mean to be dismissive of your feelings or suspicions on this InkHulk. I think YOU are smart for questioning motives and being apprehensive about taking your wife’s statements at face value at this time. I also agree that a marriage counsellor is supposed to be impartial and that it seems like your (valid) concerns here were very much dismissed, in the interest of protecting your wife from shame (again). That is not okay. It does not seem like she handled your concerns properly.

My wife comes off as a very kind and meek soul. She is shy, but everyone likes her. Our MC asked for our permission to contact our IC’s to "coordinate care". She gave a quick report out of how that conversation went with my wife’s IC and it felt like a recap of a girl’s weekend, gushing about how IC adores her and really cares about her, and I think that our MC has a lesser degree of that. If you get stern with my wife it’s like you are kicking a puppy. All that to say that I don’t think anyone other than me is holding her feet to the fire. And that is frustrating.

I was going to quote bits of your response to me but I am not sure which one I'd quote, so I will just summarize my thoughts.

Admit it, you didn’t want to argue with Batman.

My sense of how justice should be served is probably much closer to that recommended in The Old Testament than The New Testament. I respect that your view is different from mine.

Thanks. There would be a lot of stoning going in if those rules were still in play, just saying.

I would make sure that your WW wants to recover because of YOU however. If you and your WW were ever to get divorced, you would have no problem finding a high-quality partner. Your WW....well not so much. I can't imagine a high-quality man taking his chances on a woman who was adulterous in her last relationship. You better believe that your WW is aware that her prospects should you and she split, are rather grim.

I’ve thought of this point, it definitely goes under the broader question of does she want me or does she want this life. It’s a hard question because, in mathematic terms, the two things are 100% correlated, if she gets me, she gets the life and if she loses me she loses the life. I guess I could sell it all and give it to the poor and see if she still chooses me, but that seems risky too.

I really appreciated the tone of your post here. I thought it was well said, respectful, and even appropriately capitalized. But you just had to add this…

RE what your WW said to your MC...she is NOT being truthful, she is merely covering her ass. And shame on MC for not allowing that WW may be lying!

I have said it to you before and I’m about to say it again. You cannot properly deal with the enormity of this in one hour a week. You need to be able to have these conversations at home.. constantly. You are 9 months out. The clock is ticking. Damage is still accruing and your healing, like your MC sessions, keeps getting derailed. You are frustrated with your MC for taking your wife’s word for it and not making her dig into it. I wonder if that frustration would be better directed at your wife for her unwillingness to dig into it on her own.

It’s just not my reality to have these constantly at home. I’ve been messaging her today actually about these questions and getting some answers. But I do feel stifled here, and it comes down to her shame reactions. She’s actively working on that in IC (that was specifically mentioned in the gushing report out). She has proposed a mechanism to deal with it (in MC). It’s real, she isn’t making it up, it’s been there for as long as I’ve known her. To not be patient with this is to chose to leave. Long suffering is one of my virtues (thanks, Mom and Dad). But I have also walked away from my father when he revealed himself to be a lost cause. I’m not too afraid or codependent to do that, but I definitely see it as a last resort.

Could you explain these shame spirals more? If she just gets sad and withdrawn - she can do that and still answer your questions. She can fell as ashamed as she wants and still participate in these discussions with you. So what exactly is she doing that prevents her from participating?

Are you really holding her feet to the fire? If so, then how? From your posts I don't feel that you have been stern with her at any acceptable level. Aside from going to MC and IC, what else is she doing to help you get out of her infidelity?

It’s real, she isn’t making it up, it’s been there for as long as I’ve known her. To not be patient with this is to chose to leave.

I hear you. I believe you. I am not suggesting that you leave. It just really seems like this is the source of most of your issues right now. It is easy to lose sight of the forest when all those trees abound.

Long suffering is one of my virtues (thanks, Mom and Dad).

I hear you on this, too. I just don't want you to be the dog, sipping tea, thinking all is well as the flames around you grow higher.

She’s actively working on that in IC (that was specifically mentioned in the gushing report out). She has proposed a mechanism to deal with it (in MC).

This seems like a positive development. I hope it works. To this end, I actually wonder whether questioning via text might actually be useful for you guys, as it might give her the beat she needs before reacting defensively on instinct.

In case you can't tell, I really am rooting for you.

Are you really holding her feet to the fire? If so, then how? From your posts I don't feel that you have been stern with her at any acceptable level. Aside from going to MC and IC, what else is she doing to help you get out of her infidelity?

It may well be something closer to a red light fry warmer at McDonald’s, but I swear it’s close enough to cause discomfort. Pretty sure I get to choose "acceptable".

She’s doing all the things, man. No contact, transparency, books, journalling, did the STD parade. Got any out of the box suggestions? It’s just going slowly. Slower than I want, but not more slowly than I can tolerate. I have a woman that I have loved most of my adult life expressing a desire to love me and rebuild a life with me, it keeps me 100% with my kids, keeps my life’s work in tact. It’s worth patience to me. If she utterly breaks my R conditions, I’ll leave. The speed this proceeds at is something I’m willing to …. bend on.

Could you explain these shame spirals more? If she just gets sad and withdrawn - she can do that and still answer your questions.

You would think that a person feeling shame would have a soft exterior, that is the prototypical way at least I think of how shame is expressed. But I don’t think that stereotype is accurate, it certainly isn’t for her and I think Brené Brown’s work also debunks that. My wife gets defensive as fuck and rock hard. Her internal reality is her inner critic screaming like a banshee, she feels worthless inside and she’ll be damned if she is going to accept anything more from outside. We’ve had this battle our whole marriage where she does something she knows she should apologize for and I expect an apology, and she will say the words with a glare that could kill. It’s been maddening and she gets even more defensive when I call it out. And sometimes she will come back around and admit she’s been wrong and give a soft humble apology, and sometimes she would just rugsweep it. Before the A, it’s been the worst part of our relationship for me. And now with my trauma and my boundary that she can’t be defensive and angry with me cause it fucks me up, she is paralyzed. She is working on this life long shitty coping mechanism in parallel with processing the affair. It’s fucking hard. I knew I was signing up for this when I chose to try R.

I hear you on this, too. I just don't want you to be the dog, sipping tea, thinking all is well as the flames around you grow higher.

This is a big reason that I talk with all of you, even the ones who I don’t always agree with, to keep some perspective. I am definitely not in tea sipping mode in my life right now, but I hear your concern and appreciate the sentiment behind it.

This seems like a positive development. I hope it works. To this end, I actually wonder whether questioning via text might actually be useful for you guys, as it might give her the beat she needs before reacting defensively on instinct.

Messaging has been the medium for many difficult conversations between us. I want it to be face to face, it seems more intimate, but it might just work better for us to share our minds and hearts thru the written word.

In case you can't tell, I really am rooting for you.

Stop it, you’re gonna make me cry. Thanks for that and your time and energy. SI has been a safe haven for me and you’ve been a kind steady voice.

So we've gone from Batman to those sad sad red light warmers at McDonalds, in but one thread. How the mighty have fallen

You are working for R and don't want to be any harsher on your WW than need be, you've already made that very clear. However, I cannot help but notice, InkHulk, that seemingly every time you are tougher on your WW and put your foot down, she ultimately responds. Such as when you told her that your MC's horrible advice to not press her for details for sex with the AP, was an absolute nonstarter and that she needs to tell you what happened, should you ask her for it. At least that seems to be a pattern going by your posts on here that is.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:18 AM, Friday, April 7th]

So we've gone from Batman to those sad sad red light warmers at McDonalds, in but one thread. How the mighty have fallen

Touché

You are working for R and don't want to be any harsher on your WW than need be, you've already made that very clear. However, I cannot help but notice, InkHulk, that seemingly every time you are tougher on your WW and put your foot down, she ultimately responds. Such as when you told her that your MC's horrible advice to not press her for details for sex with the AP, was an absolute nonstarter and that she needs to tell you what happened, should you ask her for it. At least that seems to be a pattern going by your posts on here that is.

I assume you are saying, WBFA, that I would be better off putting my foot down more often?

Messaging has been the medium for many difficult conversations between us. I want it to be face to face, it seems more intimate, but it might just work better for us to share our minds and hearts thru the written word.

There's so much communication that's nonverbal though. Messaging doesn't account for that.

It really does sound like you guys are at a point where the communication hurdles are having an outsized effect on progress. It does no good to say things in such a way as to make perfect sense to your own ears if the person you want to listen doesn't understand you. "Listen, Rephrase, Repeat" used to be the first technique taught in communications. I hope your MC hasn't let you down so badly that she hasn't mentioned it.

Talking is healing. Your WW seems to be allergic, not unusual for a WS, but not conducive to progress. Maybe she's expecting the worst because it asks her to connect with her feelings about the things she's done, but success comes from "try, try, and try again". If you don't take her meaning the first time she says something, she needs to keep listening, rephrasing and repeating until you do. That works in reverse as well.

In my own situation, I was often surprised by how often I was saying one thing and my fWH was hearing something else, like communications beer goggles or something. It all seemed to filter through his inner biases. At points, I was just looking for information, but he was hearing condemnation and attack, and it was largely because that was what he was expecting to hear.