SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I join Fournlau and Abalone in their club on this one. No need to say anymore…Fournlau, it was well said.

There's so much communication that's nonverbal though. Messaging doesn't account for that.

I think that is true, but I also think that it is the non-verbal stuff that she most struggles with. A hard angry shell is what you see but she might be angry, sad, scared, overwhelmed. She sucks at appropriate emotional expression with difficult situations. This situation counts as difficult.

It really does sound like you guys are at a point where the communication hurdles are having an outsized effect on progress. It does no good to say things in such a way as to make perfect sense to your own ears if the person you want to listen doesn't understand you. "Listen, Rephrase, Repeat" used to be the first technique taught in communications. I hope your MC hasn't let you down so badly that she hasn't mentioned it.

We have communication tools coming out of our wazoo’s at this point. Both of us need to slow down and use them. I’m not going to claim to be perfect. I think I’m a decent communicator, but I also saw criticism in the way I talk with her once I read Gotmann. I’ve been doing some good practice communication over text tonight to get at some of the things we’ve been talking about here and it’s gone well. I’ll update tomorrow, don’t have the energy tonight.

In my own situation, I was often surprised by how often I was saying one thing and my fWH was hearing something else, like communications beer goggles or something. It all seemed to filter through his inner biases. At points, I was just looking for information, but he was hearing condemnation and attack, and it was largely because that was what he was expecting to hear.

This happens a lot. Last year I asked her a simple question about classifying an expense as I was working on the budget, a purely factual question so I could complete my task, and she blew up, saying I was calling her irresponsible for not already having done it. I was not having it that day, but things like that have been fairly regular. Again, I think it stems from lack of self worth, she just hasn’t been able to handle exterior stresses well, they overwhelm her and overwhelmed looks like the angry green monster in my namesake.

The problem is Semancics.

For instance when a murder occurs intent becomes critical. When a murder occurs when committing a felony intent does not matter.

In an affair whether doing the hobby with OM was her primary reason or not does not matter. The fact she did the hobby and involved the children is all that matters.

Ink - I am going to be fairly blunt here, as you keep reading this. With regard to your latest issue with your MC re you not believing your WW is telling the truth…

First, you said you messaged your WW snd and noted that you were going to be done…. If you you don’t actually mean this, or plan to follow through with being done, than I don’t recommend you throw that out there. Based on what you’ve posted, you have no plans to D your WW, so this would ring empty to her, giving her a disincentive to actually tell the truth.

This also goes back to what I was trying to say earlier, but which you felt was not applicable to your situation. Perhaps you don’t feel that your WW is telling the truth because she has developed a construct regarding her A that works for her. Thus, whether this is the truth, or fits with the facts, is less relevant to her than her new post A construct she’s developed. You obviously have issues with this construct being the truth, and you brought it up during MC.

What adds to the challenge of getting to the truth is when a WS knows that BS is not going anywhere - the M will be preserved at any price. In your case, it appears that this is driven by your faith.

The reason doesn’t matter. When a WS knows the betrayed will stay no matter what, the truth becomes less important. There is less incentive.

I personally think that the current path you’ve embarked upon to R is going to prove in the long run to be very challenging. I’m being very direct here with you. Faith is wonderful. However, you may want to take a close look at whether it’s serving you well right now as a basis for R. Or, should you approach your WWs A, snd R, from a completely secular perspective.

I think that you will completely disagree with me, being an absolutely hard no. Thus, your ability to not even consider this approach is a hindrance to a successful R, in and of itself.

In an affair whether doing the hobby with OM was her primary reason or not does not matter. The fact she did the hobby and involved the children is all that matters.

In the sense that nothing is going to erase that she did it, I agree. But I do care to understand her motives, partly for my own curiousity and to get at the "why’s". I hear people here talking about piecing together their WS’s mindset during the A, so it seems like I’m not unique in this.

First, you said you messaged your WW snd and noted that you were going to be done…. If you you don’t actually mean this, or plan to follow through with being done, then I don’t recommend you throw that out there. Based on what you’ve posted, you have no plans to D your WW, so this would ring empty to her, giving her a disincentive to actually tell the truth.

I’m not sure what you are referring to about me messaging about being done. I scanned back thru the thread to see where I may have said that but I don’t see it. Can you tell me what you are referring to? {Edit: I did find that and her lack of humility with me was a strong violation of below mentioned R requirements).}

Regardless, during the MC session she was frustrated with me not believing her answer and questioned the value of her answering my questions in light of that. I looked at her deadly serious and said that if you take that stance then we can call it. And it’s not a bluff. I put together my six requirements for R early on and they haven’t changed . They are:

Vulnerability and humility

Deep answers to why

Empathy uninterrupted by shame

Passion, including sex

The full truth, to my satisfaction

Respect

Her saying answering questions was pointless directly violates tenant 5, the full truth to my satisfaction. If she would have said she was done answering questions I would have been done. And it’s possible you think I’m being all brave behind a key board and would cave in real life. But a key life experience is my alcoholic father that eventually ended with me writing him off. That came after a long night of talking, long enough for the booze he had dumped into his system earlier in the evening to wear off and for his eyes to sharpen again. And in the soberness and after hours of talking, I asked him if he actually wanted to live free of his addiction. He looked at me and said no. I lost my dad at that moment, I knew it was over. If she does something equivalent, I’m gone.

This also goes back to what I was trying to say earlier, but which you felt was not applicable to your situation. Perhaps you don’t feel that your WW is telling the truth because she has developed a construct regarding her A that works for her. Thus, whether this is the truth, or fits with the facts, is less relevant to her than her new post A construct she’s developed. You obviously have issues with this construct being the truth, and you brought it up during MC.

I didn’t say it doesn’t apply, I just don’t believe I can answer it. She would have to, and WOES graciously sub’ed in something that might apply.

What adds to the challenge of getting to the truth is when a WS knows that BS is not going anywhere - the M will be preserved at any price. In your case, it appears that this is driven by your faith.

See above about not going anywhere. And regarding faith, even that is complicated. Infidelity is the one thing that Jesus calls out as grounds for divorce. He doesn’t say you have to, but that even in God’s eyes that its understandable. And there are so many other themes in my faith tradition that use reconciliation from infidelity as the prime analogy to the highest love. So to sum that up, if Jesus was sitting next to me, I’m not really sure what he would advise.

I personally think that the current path you’ve embarked upon to R is going to prove in the long run to be very challenging. I’m being very direct here with you. Faith is wonderful. However, you may want to take a close look at whether it’s serving you well right now as a basis for R. Or, should you approach your WWs A, snd R, from a completely secular perspective.

I appreciate your directness, no worries there. Care to say more about what you mean by "secular perspective"? I’m under no illusion that by being a Christian this is all going to be healed. Bob Dylan ends his song, God on our side, with the line "if God is on our side he’ll stop the next war". I wish God would have prevented this, but He didn’t. I’m not going to pretend that everything is going to go my way because of beliefs. It’s Good Friday after all, the ultimate day of pain and horror within the Christian tradition. I am not above that.

I think that you will completely disagree with me, being an absolutely hard no. Thus, your ability to not even consider this approach is a hindrance to a successful R, in and of itself.

I’m not a hard no, that should be clear in this response. I’m doing my best to stumble thru the dark. Thanks for doing what you can to help my cause.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:20 PM, Friday, April 7th]

Vulnerability and humility
Deep answers to why
Empathy uninterrupted by shame
Passion, including sex
The full truth, to my satisfaction
Respect

For a variety of reasons - including compassion - I continue to live with someone who betrayed his vows after only a few years of M, and did it again 12 years later. My WH is a man who either cannot or will not satisfy any of those requirements. I've spent years hearing he is a changed man but I can't really tell if he is, since he seems to be low in ability to be introspective, open, empathic and respectful of others. It just isn't his first instinct, in any situation. While I believe he "loves" me in some way, I feel like his stated desire to "work on it" probably comes from fear of losing this lifestyle and having to start over, more than from any emotion he may feel towards me. He does give many things that are not too challenging for him, but in 21 years of asking for progress in these "required" R areas, I'm 0 for 6. True story.

So, just making a comment on how much of a challenge this may be to fulfill. It certainly is a reasonable list - but is it feasible for a WW?

My wife gets defensive as fuck and rock hard.

And you've said this doesn't happen in MC, right? Why do you think that is?

I’m trying to be a bit delicate and obviously I’m failing in conveying my message.

So here it is: I think you’re being too understanding, too gracious, too much religiosity in your approach to R. It’s a fine line with rug sweeping.

Yes, you’re addressing her A. Yes, you’re at MC. I think you think this reaches a level of sufficiency. I respectfully disagree. I think you objectively know what I’m saying.

What more can you be doing? First off, leave your faith at the door and go from there. Approach R without intertwining it with the bible, Jesus, etc. That doesn’t mean abandon your faith in general. Just abandon it when your dealing with your WWs A and R.

If this can’t be done, then I believe real R will be a challenge. The Bible is not a scientific fact based way to deal with an A and R. IC, MC, books, podcasts, articles, snd sites such as this can better serve you wrt her A and R.

To add. There are clergy who are trained in infidelity and R. This might be a compromise for you. Just a thought.

InkHulk
And there are so many other themes in my faith tradition that use reconciliation from infidelity as the prime analogy to the highest love.

This got my attention. If you are so inclined, I would appreciate more explanation of this. Or a reference to where I could read more about this.

Thanks!

So, just making a comment on how much of a challenge this may be to fulfill. It certainly is a reasonable list - but is it feasible for a WW?

Superesse, I’m not sure you were looking for sympathy but regardless I hear struggle in your words and it sounds like you are living in a situation you aren’t entirely happy with, and I do have sympathy for that. Never too late to start a thread and start talking it out.

I believe it will be hard for my wife to meet this list. I also can’t imagine taking anything off of it and wanting that life. So that is my standard and I’m going to advocate for it. I used it to give her what I saw as a sort of progress report last month. There is progress, in some areas more than others. Just going back to my old marriage isn’t good enough, for either of us. This has to be something healthy and new for both of us or we should split up.

InkHulk, this whole thread has been so helpful to read, but your list of requirements to R really summed up what I'd originally expected from my WH, and what most every BS would agree they want and need. Thank you for that. I wish you and your WW success in your R!

And you've said this doesn't happen in MC, right? Why do you think that is?

She still has discomfort talking about what she did in the A, she feels ashamed and looks to me to be on the verge of shutting down. I think she sees the MC as someone who will be an external guard against getting shamed. Keep in mind the budget example I gave, she has always been very sensitive to exterior critique due to her inner worth problems. So for that person to openly expose doing genuinely shameful and disgusting acts, I have genuine empathy for her in that. But it still has to happen.

So here it is: I think you’re being too understanding, too gracious, too much religiosity in your approach to R. It’s a fine line with rug sweeping.

I’ve written before that my approach to this is informed by my alcoholic father and attempts to influence him to give up drinking. You could be a complete hard ass on him and he would reject you as judgmental, or you could be accepting and befriend him and he would take that as a signal to just keep on keeping on. There isn’t a formula to change another person’s heart. So this part is not particularly religious-y for me.

Yes, you’re addressing her A. Yes, you’re at MC. I think you think this reaches a level of sufficiency. I respectfully disagree. I think you objectively know what I’m saying.

As a practice I do not ever agree with someone who tells me something and ends it with "I think you know what I mean". I’m actually doing the things. I’ve given up on Christian counselors because the first two we tried utterly failed us preaching cheap grace and shared responsibility.

What more can you be doing? First off, leave your faith at the door and go from there. Approach R without intertwining it with the bible, Jesus, etc. That doesn’t mean abandon your faith in general. Just abandon it when your dealing with your WWs A and R.

Yeah, that’s not going to happen. If my faith was just my opiate for everyday life and I checked it at the door in crisis, I would drop it in a second. On the other hand it has been helpful as a framework in this terrible time.

If this can’t be done, then I believe real R will be a challenge. The Bible is not a scientific fact based way to deal with an A and R. IC, MC, books, podcasts, articles, snd sites such as this can better serve you wrt her A and R.

I mean, I can go read Cheating In A Nutshell ten times as penance if you think it would help Believe me, I know the Bible isn’t a textbook. But it informs my starting point and it helps me think about next steps. I’m all about getting all the best information I can get my hands on. We’re doing Gotmann and Attachment Theory, taking Body Keeps the Score very seriously, will do EMDR if and when it makes sense for us. I’m a pretty prolific poster here, if you hadn’t noticed. I’ll do all those things to try to get the best outcome I can here, and I’ll do it as a person of faith.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:54 PM, Thursday, May 25th]

InkHulk, this whole thread has been so helpful to read, but your list of requirements to R really summed up what I'd originally expected from my WH, and what most every BS would agree they want and need. Thank you for that. I wish you and your WW success in your R!

I’ve been helped by so many here, I’m glad I can start to pay some of that forward. Thank you for your well wishes and I hope your own journey is good and fulfilling as well.

InkHulk

Was your reference to ‘cheap grace’ a nod to Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

I started reading him and Eugene Peterson at the start of our troubles and found those authors helpful.

Was your reference to ‘cheap grace’ a nod to Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

I started reading him and Eugene Peterson at the start of our troubles and found those authors helpful.

I’ve read a little Bonhoeffer, but I can’t say it was a nod to him. (For anyone who doesn’t know, Bonhoeffer was a German Christian theologian who was executed for being part of a plot to assassinate Hitler.) It would be much cooler to say yes, but all I was really saying is the first counselor didn’t have us talk about the affair at all. Like zero. Straight to marriage dynamics stuff. And when questioned if that was a good approach in our disaster he had no good answer. Left him, spent 15 min in another Christian guys office that ended the minute when he told me I needed to accept my responsibility for the affair. Searched around and found our current MC based off being trained in Gottman, Attachment Theory, and having a love of Brené Brown.

I’ve never read anything from Peterson. Any suggestions?

Eugene Peterson is a Presbyterian pastor who had a moment of fame when Bono from U2 called himself a big fan. He wrote a translation of the Bible called ‘The Message’ which is a very loose, modern take. He is quite well known for discussing the pastoral aspect of being a pastor, and how it doesn’t sit well with modern corporate approaches to running a church. But mostly, he is a very humane person, who speaks from his own experience, has studied the Bible deeply and has a great voice for audiobooks (which was a great help when I wasn’t sleeping). I think he writes best about reluctant prophets and Old Testament leaders, especially Jonah. His spiels against gnostic thought are interesting and join a bit with Richard Rohr in my mind, thoughts about trinity and incarnational mysticism.

‘When Kingfishers catch fire’ is one point of entry. The title comes from a Gerard Manly Hopkins poem.

With Dietrich Boenhoeffer, he was executed, still a young man, just before the end of the war. He founded the confessing church which resisted the Lutheran Church (a state church at that stage) from becoming a Nazi instrument, which most parishioners were in favor of. He wrote the books The Cost of Discipleship (where he talks of cheap grace) and Life Together. He was a big fan of Negro Spirituals and taught them in his seminary classes (having taught Sunday school in Harlem) and was imprisoned for being a double agent. I couldn’t quite get into his prison diaries but for me he is a very real young man who has taught me something about moral courage. I needed some of that.

[This message edited by straightup at 10:06 PM, Saturday, April 8th]

This got my attention. If you are so inclined, I would appreciate more explanation of this. Or a reference to where I could read more about this.

Adolfo, I sent you a PM on this topic, as I strongly suspect it crosses over too strongly into religious topics to be within guidelines. If anyone else wants it as well, feel free to PM me or ask on the board.