SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My W had the same thoughts - that I would not love her if I knew the real plainsong. She did not, however, cheat because she wanted to do it before I did. She was basically frozen and unwilling to say 'no'.

Further, decisions about oneself operate even when the decision maker is unaware of the choice. In fact, the decision may have even more impact when it's pre-conscious. BTDT, though not with cheating.

Thanks to those asking about the weekend, it feels like that part of home where people are waiting for you.

The weekend was net positive. My engineer brain that has been fed book after book of relationship advice for the last year has some thoughts on how it could have been improved, but overall it was worth going to. It’s not an infidelity focused program, more about communication than anything. They did call out the "three A’s (abuse, addiction, affairs) as needing special attention, so I appreciated that. It got us talking about some deep things all weekend, which was good, and put us on a trajectory to continue. We had some vulnerable connection times, there was a mini fight when she was very dismissive of a feeling I communicated, but we recovered and she later apologized. I would say it wasn’t a life changing breakthrough moment, but it was a good step. We came home and gave our kids an update on how we are doing, it was the first time we’ve done that. Told them that that we are really trying and there are good signs and we have hope.

In my personal experience I had a difficult time accepting that my husband loved me for who I am. I had come up with some crazy idea in my head that he was with me until someone better came along. He had settled for me. Because I felt that way, a part of my affair was about hurting him before he had the chance to hurt me. Affairs are complicated and there was so much more to it, but each thread you pull can help find that path to healing for both of you.

I really don’t think she doubted my love. But the depths of her self-deprivation have yet to be fully revealed. I think she has regarded any show of taking care of herself as selfish and therefore wrong. I do think she couldn’t bring herself to advocate for her own needs and wants and the only way to get them was thru illicit means. It makes me think of a person getting heroin off the streets when they have a legitimate perscription in hand but they are two embarrassed to face the pharmacist to fill it, not wanting to appear weak.

And Dude, I have to admit I don’t really understand your question. If you could kindly restate it I would be happy to try to dialog. Are you asking if those kinds of thoughts like “he doesn’t truly love me” are conscious thoughts they are aware of during the affair and actively driving actions versus subconscious ideas that only get revealed afterward with introspection and therapy?

[This message edited by InkHulk at 4:49 PM, Monday, April 3rd]

@InkHulk:

I really don’t think she doubted my love. But the depths of her self-deprivation have yet to be fully revealed. I think she has regarded any show of taking care of herself as selfish and therefore wrong. I do think she couldn’t bring herself to advocate for her own needs and wants and the only way to get them was thru illicit means. It makes me think of a person getting heroin off the streets when they have a legitimate perscription in hand but they are two embarrassed to face the pharmacist to fill it, not wanting to appear weak.

This analogy ignores the fact that going by the details revealed, there clearly was a malicious component to your WW's actions, that it wasn't 'self-deprivation' at all, instead it actually was *entitlement*. She was not merely sneaking around behind everyone's back to get her needs met with as little trouble to everyone else as possible. I mean, if I decide to not get a prescription filled by my friendly pharmacist out of embarrassment, then that can hardly be taken as having ill intent towards my pharmacist. If someone decides to **break into** CVS Pharmacy to come in and take the drugs they think they need nevermind the pain it may cause other people, well I think that analogy may be more apt.

And all this goes right from the beginning of your WW's affair, even before she brought your kids into this....

Well, I am not trying to be rubbing salt into the wounds. There is probably a tendency for BOTH parties to do their best to try to reframe what happened so they can feel better about things. I am also coming to see that your #1 mission in life is keeping your family together including your wife, and so you are willing to....bend quite a bit...to keep your marriage. (And this may involve you making it a point to not dwell on the details of your WW's affair. Whereas if I were ever in infidelity again it probably would be precisely those details that I would not be able to get past and that would inform my decision-making.) Maybe this is me though, but I just don't see how the two of you can heal though, until your WW fully owns up to that is what she did.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:36 AM, Wednesday, April 5th]

I do believe the cheating spouse can believe they are unloved and seek acceptance elsewhere. I think it says everything about their self esteem and inability to feel love and nothing about the marriage. I am of the camp that my husband’s affair had nothing to do with me and was not done "to" me. He has admitted that he knew I’d be pissed, but truly could not fathom
I’d be as hurt as I was when discovered. When one doesn’t feel truly loved or love themself, they can’t fathom being thought of fondly enough to have an effect on another. He says he felt irrelevant to anyone for a long time. This is not a justification or an excuse, it’s just a part of the process that led to his "whys" and healing so it never happens again. I do think my perspective on most affairs and certainly what sounds like the nature of your wife’s affair was what allowed me to move on and recover marriage intact. It was his issue, not mine, or ours, and I never took it personally. I wish you healing and happiness. You seem highly invested in your family and that is an admirable quality. My now adult kids know about my husband’s cheating. They pretty much know it all. While they may see him differently now, likely harbor some residual pain and resentment, they truly love their father and acknowledge he fucked up badly, but was ultimately a good dad and still is. In fact, my oldest recently told me how proud she was for work he did to be the man he is today and that she is so happy we are still together as one family.

My question again: is the construct of he didn’t love me a result of post A deep introspection, doing the work, lots of IC? Did she really think this pre and during the A? Or, is it actually a construct she developed simply to mitigate her A, because there’s no way I could have done this if I didn’t think he didn’t love me? In essence, is it real or a convenient contrivance? How do you know?

My question again: is the construct of he didn’t love me a result of post A deep introspection, doing the work, lots of IC? Did she really think this pre and during the A? Or, is it actually a construct she developed simply to mitigate her A, because there’s no way I could have done this if I didn’t think he didn’t love me? In essence, is it real or a convenient contrivance? How do you know?

I think this question is being asked based off WOES post (is that acronym intentional?) and would be better posted on the I Can Relate forum. It’s too deep of a dive into my wife’s time dependent motives for me to even attempt to speak meaningfully too. If WOES wants to take a shot at answering it from her experience I would welcome that.

This analogy ignores the fact that going by the details revealed, there clearly was a malicious component to your WW's actions, that it wasn't 'self-deprivation' at all, instead it actually was *entitlement*. She was not merely sneaking around behind everyone's back to get her needs met with as little trouble to everyone else as possible.

I’m going to pull an example from the movie "The Dark Knight", a personal favorite. Bruce Wayne and Alfred are discussing the motives of the Joker. Bruce’s line is "criminals are not complex", they have fairly predictable self serving motives. Alfred comes back with his story that ends with the line "some men just want to see the world burn", describing a special kind of sociopath. It feels to me like you see the Joker in my wife. I’m with Batman here, I think she’s a less complicated offender. She isn’t evil incarnate. She’s a human being who got life’s basics mixed up in her head and walked away from goodness. I think she’s horrified by what she did and desperately wants to come home. In terms of consequences, I agree with OTOSOH’s take that she will have to live with herself and what she’s done, and if anything more than that is needed, I trust that God will see to it. If she will stay penitent and loving with me, then I’m going to keep trying to reconcile fully with her.

I am also coming to see that your #1 mission in life is keeping your family together including your wife, and so you are willing to....bend quite a bit...to keep your marriage. (And this may involve you making it a point to not dwell on the details of your WW's affair. Whereas if I were ever in infidelity again it probably would be precisely those details that I would not be able to get past and that would inform my decision-making.)

The best outcome I can see in this is a successful R, no rugsweeping allowed, we work thru the A and FOO issues and communication issues and the backlog of ways I’ve hurt her that she has stuffed. Next best outcome would be divorce. Worst option would be a zombie marriage. Any attempt at R will require bending.

I’m not going to re-litigate the AspectNorth thread. I made up my mind from what I saw there. My mind is calming down. If it can settle without me knowing everything like the script to a porn film, I see no problem with that. And if can’t, then I’ll react to that.

Maybe this is me though, but I just don't see how the two of you can heal though, until your WW fully owns up to that is what she did.

Every story I read here about R is that true realization by the WS of what was done takes time. I can accept that. If there is progress and growth, that is what I need.

I do believe the cheating spouse can believe they are unloved and seek acceptance elsewhere. I think it says everything about their self esteem and inability to feel love and nothing about the marriage. I am of the camp that my husband’s affair had nothing to do with me and was not done "to" me. He has admitted that he knew I’d be pissed, but truly could not fathom
I’d be as hurt as I was when discovered.

This sounds right to me. She has people all around her that love her. She was taught young that emotions are irrelevant and get in the way of survival. I don’t think people understand how destructive that idea is. So she had one strong message in her brain of "don’t show emotion" and that was directly fighting her human nature of wanting emotional connection. Throw in a bunch of other turds in the pot and that soup did not come out well. But I believe fundamentally she as a human being is better than what she did.

I’ve got it in my head that it wasn’t about me, but my heart needs some convincing.

And I don’t think anyone who hasn’t seen it first hand would have any clue about the devastation. Seems like there is a popular image that you’d get a "how could you!?", sleep on the couch a few nights, and then things might start to blow over. Instead it’s closer to the inner reality being like the death of a child while the exterior seems normal and no one knows what to do with that. At least I don’t.

There is probably a tendency for BOTH parties to do their best to try to reframe what happened so they can feel better about things.

I can see people who chose not to R feel this way, but speaking only for my R — reframing to me — is a synonym for rugsweeping.

Trying to understand a choice I didn’t make did allow me to try to understand why my wife did what she did.

And there are FOO issues, mitigating circumstances, and yet, trying to figure that stuff out doesn’t reframe or alter reality. NONE of those FOO issues or perfect storm moments, like a real world postpartum depression diagnosis actually EXCUSES a single horrific choice.

I got to a point where I completely understood my wife’s mindset prior to the A starting, but again, there are no good REASONS to cheat. Ever. Wrong is wrong.

My empathy toward my wife is good, ignoring or trying to reframe infidelity, is trying to look the other way and hoping for the best.

I view my wife as a whole person, all the good she has done and the complete horror show she added to our history. She is the sum of all she has done, as am I.

This analogy ignores the fact that going by the details revealed, there clearly was a malicious component to your WW's actions, that it wasn't 'self-deprivation' at all, instead it actually was *entitlement*.

She can have been (and likely was!) selfish and entitled in her A, but that doesn’t mean she was malicious. Malicious = intends to do harm. Very few Waywards have affairs with the express intent to harm their spouses. If the goal was to hurt their spouse, they likely wouldn’t take steps to conceal their actions. In most cases, the harm to their spouse is an unintended (but foreseeable!) byproduct of their own selfishness. Nothing InkHulk has said about his wife’s affair leads me to believe that his case is any different. In InkHulk’s words, she is not the Joker.

WBFA – In your pharmacy analogy, the pharmacist is hurt by the break-in however presumably that was not your intent. The INTENT (both in the illicit drugs scenario and in the break-into the pharmacy scenario) was to get the drugs without anyone knowing – in the latter case, the harm to the pharmacist was an unintended (but foreseeable!) byproduct.

I am not denying that affairs cause harm. OBVIOUSLY they do, and most waywards are reckless to the harm that they cause. I’m just saying, it’s not about YOU. It’s not about InkHulk. The harm is not the intent.

I don’t see him looking at her toxic selflessness as a way to rewrite the story of the A so he has a reason to excuse her behaviour, I see him looking at it to discover the root of the issue. To stretch the drug prescription analogy farther, he is trying to solve the issue of WHY her shame/embarrassment/whatever prevents her from just going to get the prescription filled at the pharmacy instead of feeling the need to get the drugs via illicit means. Maybe he needs to look into why she wants/needs the drugs in the first place. Those are the things she needs to work on to become a safe partner. Figuring out a persons WHYS is not about rewriting the A in order to mitigate personal responsibility (ie. rugsweepinmg), it's about identifying root issues that need to be solved in order to move forward in a healthier relationship. If a drug addict breaks into a pharmacy to get drugs, perhaps they are charged with a crime and maybe they serve jail time BUT if that person continues to use drugs, they are still at risk of reoffending when they get out. If you plan on living with that addict, its in your best interest to deal with the underlying addiction issues, know what I mean?

I’ve got it in my head that it wasn’t about me, but my heart needs some convincing.

This was the hardest, but likely the most important, component to my own healing. It is one thing to say it and even to know intellectually that it is true. It’s another thing to feel it.

I disagree that she had no malicious intent, when it comes to OBS. She entered that woman's life. Became friendly with OBS's children. For years. All while she was having sex with the woman's husband,the children's father. There is no way to try to rewrite that, to make her sound kind,or compassionate. She did not have to do any of that. She chose to. That is malicious intent,IMO.

It's one thing to have an affair with a married man. It's a whole other thing to become friendly with his wife and kids, so you can spend more time with her AP.

There is a controversial popular psychologist. I take him with a grain of salt for various reasons I won’t go in to. He does have his good moments but popularity made him too didactic to stomach. Amongst his sources and discussion points are the writers Solzhenitsyn, Dostoevsky and Nietzsche (why am I thinking of Kevin Kline’s character in ‘A Fish called Wanda’ when I type Nietzsche).

Anyway…he makes the point that people think of what they might have done if faced with hard and personally costly moral choices at difficult times in history.

His point is if you think you would have acted better than most of the people acted (badly) then, you are probably wrong. You probably would have informed on your neighbors etc… most did…. Everyone thinks they would have been the good guy. You (and I) probably would not have been). Any moral approach to life you take on needs to acknowledge that.

A lot of people think humans are good(ish) but can stray off the path and can get themselves back on it. I get it. When I look at my wonderful teenage daughter it’s easy to see a person who is very strongly inclined to good.

Another traditional (dare I say Catholic, which I’m not) view is to see human nature as fallen, and to say it requires life long work, humility and guarding one’s soul to be even half-decent. Acting terribly is almost what the norm would dictate, acting well is what diligence and grace allow.

I think perhaps they are two lenses through which to look at the same thing - innocence and experience as Blake might say.

My own view is that cheaters are malicious, do see much of the harm they are likely to do, do mean it, and, sadly that is pretty common human behaviour under certain conditions. I have seen enough addiction to see this. Addicts know, so do thieves, but they do not care or choose to focus on what’s right.

The upside, from a place of humility, is that I am made from the same stuff. If I can find the will and reinforce habits which reliably lead me to trend in a better direction, so can my wife.

It's one thing to have an affair with a married man. It's a whole other thing to become friendly with his wife and kids, so you can spend more time with her AP.

My opinion is that in most cases it is a means to an end rather than the end itself. I doubt her intent was to harm the OBS even more than I doubt her intent was to harm InkHulk. My H brought me to OW's birthday party (hosted by OBS) during the A however because he wanted to go but felt it would be weird to attend alone. Post-D-day, it was one of the most hurtful parts of the A to me because it seemed almost pointedly cruel to both me (and OBS). Ultimately however, it wasn't about me (or OBS) though, it was just another way for two selfish people in an A to justify spending time together. Perhaps my opinion is based on my experience then.

Hellfire, I wonder if your experience is colouring your opinion. My recollection is that the OW in your scenario was more the bunny-boiler/sociopath type and that she stalked your family, and you specifically, for many years even after D-day. In my view, that makes her an outlier as far as OW go, though I can see why a story of a WW ingratiating herself into OBS's family might be triggering.

My own view is that cheaters are malicious, do see much of the harm they are likely to do, do mean it, and, sadly that is pretty common human behaviour under certain conditions. I have seen enough addiction to see this. Addicts know, so do thieves, but they do not care or choose to focus on what’s right.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that cheaters are not aware, or at least reckless to, the harm that is likely to occur. Nor am I saying that just because they didn't MEAN to hurt anyone, their actions should be overlooked/forgiven. Not at all. I'm just saying that "intent to harm" is not their motivation.

Emergent..that's a possibility. I will agree with that.

I just think an OW who invades the OBS'S family, and interacts with her children(IIRC,OPs wife babysat the kids at some point?), all so she can have more access to the AP,and so she can appear to be a potential mother figure to his kids, is being malicious towards the OBS.

If we are going to discuss the behavior of the WW, I believe the behavior towards each everyone involved,is relevant.

And..yes. The OW in my situation stalked me, messaged my daughter on SM, became a member here and lied her ass off to everyone, while simultaneously poked at me,toying with me, trying to get a response,and when that didn't work, she moved on to another site, and continues to lie for sympathy. All while constantly sending self help books to my home. It's been nearly 13 years. I've had one single conversation with her. She's not worthy of time.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:16 PM, Wednesday, April 5th]

And..yes. The OW in my situation stalked me, messaged my daughter on SM, became a member here and lied her ass off to everyone, while simultaneously poked at me,toying with me, trying to get a response,and when that didn't work, she moved on to another site, and continues to lie for sympathy. All while constantly sending self help books to my home. It's been nearly 13 years.

Now this? THIS is malicious.

I think it's quite a bit simpler than people generally being good or needing to put in effort to be good.

People are generally selfish, and selfishness generally benefits more than just the selfish actor, or people have the foresight to see selfish benefits in cooperation. True sacrifice to the "greater good" is rare. I'm not quite saying "greed is good", but it's not necessarily bad.

The cheater, in the moment, believes the A is benefiting them and is worth the risk they are taking. I don't think this is a true rational cost benefit analysis. More of a by the jollies sort of decision.

Cheaters are a lot like thieves. A thief robs to get easy rich. His intention is not to hurt his victim but to get rich as easily and as fast as possible. That doesn't mean he is unaware that his crime will damage his victim's life. He knows that, but that is not motivation. He carries weapons to rob. Again, his intention is not hurt his victims but to intimidate them using weapons to make them cooperate with him and also, incase, they try to fight him, he will use that weapon in self defense. That's exactly what cheaters do. They carry affair for easy ego and sexual fix. Their motivation is not to hurt their partners, but they are aware that their affair will inevitably hurt their partners. Like robbers, they don't hesitate to manipulate and use their victims to manage their affairs. Like robbers, they would even go on to the extent of committing certain acts that would harm and traumatize their partners. Like involving your children, taking the wife to AP's parties, and making the husband repair the AC of the wife's boss's bedroom, where the wife has sex with her boss, stds, etc. Again, motivation is not to hurt their victims but to manage their affairs. But, nonetheless, in the end, it doesn't matter. If you are lucky, you can take back everything that is stolen from you by a robber, but you can't take back everything that was stolen from you by your cheating partner. You can soon psychologically recover from all the mental harm roberry might have caused you, but to recover from infidelity is a much more difficult task. It's not impossible but very much difficult. You might never see the person who robbed you ever again. He was a stranger. No personal feelings. No love or emotions invested there. It's much easier to recover. But in the case of infidelity, that is the opposite story. Reconciliation is very harder because of this difference. Eventually, you have to take a leap of faith and forgive your partner for all things they did if they are truly remorseful and actively working to make you feel safer.

Now this? THIS is malicious.

emergent8 : how do you classify what act is malicious and what isn't?

Is it based on the intent behind the act or impact of the said act?

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 11:08 PM, Wednesday, April 5th]

I think my previous posts make it clear that I’m classifying "malicious" based on the intention of the act rather than the impact of the act. I believe my view is consistent with the dictionary definition of the word. For example, I wrote:

Malicious = intends to do harm. Very few Waywards have affairs with the express intent to harm their spouses. If the goal was to hurt their spouse, they likely wouldn’t take steps to conceal their actions. In most cases, the harm to their spouse is an unintended (but foreseeable!) byproduct of their own selfishness.

I am not denying that affairs cause harm. OBVIOUSLY they do, and most waywards are reckless to the harm that they cause. I’m just saying, it’s not about YOU. It’s not about InkHulk. The harm is not the intent.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that cheaters are not aware, or at least reckless to, the harm that is likely to occur. Nor am I saying that just because they didn't MEAN to hurt anyone, their actions should be overlooked/forgiven. Not at all. I'm just saying that "intent to harm" is not their motivation.

The actions that the OW took in Hellfire’s situation appear to be done for the purpose of causing Hellfire harm. They are therefore malicious.

Again, motivation is not to hurt their victims but to manage their affairs.

It sounds like you and I agree that, in most cases, cheaters do have affairs for the purpose of harming their spouses. That, of course, does nothing to mitigate the harm that occurs.