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How long have I been married?

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 11:17 PM on Tuesday, April 11th, 2023

InkHulk, this thread is past 200 posts

.

Is that a problem?

What have you gotten from this thread? Any new insights on getting yourself out of infidelity in particular?

Absolutely. I got multiple people’s varied perspectives on how they view the duration of their marriages in light of infidelity and it helped me feel a sense of freedom to embrace the gray of my own situation. I also saw a variety of approaches to celebrating anniversaries and it helped me make a choice for myself. I’ve used it to process real time issues that have come up, helping to validate common experience and even refocus my thoughts. I’ve gotten encouragement and camaraderie. Got to talk about Batman and Boenhoffer. I’ve even gotten feedback that I’ve helped people. I would say it’s been a fantastic use of an internet forum.

You had originally asked "How long have I been married" and a few of us--I guess myself especially--have expressed some rather strongly worded opinions and may have gone too far. BUT, looking back, **you** were the one who asked the question "How long have I been married" and so you seemed to be asking how you should view the situation.

You should probably go back and look at the original post, not just the title.

You have the patience of Job.

Add getting compliments to what I got out of this thread.

You have committed to R even though your WW doesn't seem to be a candidate for R. You seem awfully focused on your WW's healing, but what about your own? You also have anger and rage--when will it be your turn. (You seem to be thinking a lot about not overburdening your WW instead....This and the commitment to R before your own healing....Hence the "rugsweeping" comments on your threads) Does she have the strength to get down on the carpet with you? Will she ever. Your WW still frankly seems concerned about herself--HER shame storms etc.

I again appreciate your concern for me. But here’s the thing, I am healing. I’m much better than I was 6 months ago, even better than 2 months ago. It’s happening. I have assessed my options, and what I’m doing is the best I can think to come up with. Maybe you have a preconceived notion that someone doing what you see me doing can’t heal. But I am. I’m not going to crush her out of spite, and I don’t believe that I’m doing anyone any favors by trying to personally ensure she hits rock bottom. I want a life where I am healthy and living a good loving life with a healthy her. That is what I am aiming for. I have things I won’t compromise on, and I have things I will. I’m trying.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 11:28 PM on Tuesday, April 11th, 2023

I’ve read most of your dozens and dozens of posts and am still baffled about what it is you really want.

I would think I’ve been pretty clear. I hope for a healthy, principled R with the woman that I love. And if that can’t happen, I want to D.

It seems to me that by totally focusing on your poor, delicate WW and all her FOO issues you don’t really have to confront her or yourself and ask the tough questions.

Which are?

It appears you’re trying to grasp anything that will allow you to stay and not D or even demand full participation in R from you WW.

Sure, you can simplify it like that if it makes your world make more sense. But have you taken note of the stories told around here of those who did successfully R? I have. I hear in them that it takes waywards time to really come around to remorse, even years. So this perspective that unless I am working with a unicorn that the situation is hopeless is bullshit. I am choosing to invest precious time in my life trying to R with my wife with my eyes wide open that it might not work. I choose that risk.

You keep saying and doing the same thing and expect a different result. It’s just not going to happen.

Thanks for letting me know.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 11:31 PM on Tuesday, April 11th, 2023

This really resonated to me.

Thanks, Emergent, I feel understood and like I totally get where you are coming from. I added a question to my list to see if she can come up with a list of good memories we have together within the A timeframe. It feels hopeful to me that she could.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 11:35 PM on Tuesday, April 11th, 2023

The book The Mind is Flat really opened my (flat) mind to how people think.

Thanks, I’ll have to check it out, sounds very well aligned with my interest in behavioral economics. The human mind is many things, but a completely logically consistent computer is not one of them.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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HouseOfPlane ( member #45739) posted at 4:14 AM on Wednesday, April 12th, 2023

sounds very well aligned with my interest in behavioral economics.

How Emotions are Made is another good one. By Lisa Barrett. Again, based on empirical research, and again upends a lot of "accepted truths".

DDay 1986: R'd, it was hard, hard work.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?”
― Mary Oliver

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FindingaWayHome ( member #78829) posted at 8:44 AM on Wednesday, April 12th, 2023

Hi IH,

I love reading your posts and threads, I get so much out them. So many good thoughts to ponder.
And yes, I can see how much you have changed over the past six months or so brother.

I love the statement:

I want a life where I am healthy and living a good loving life with a healthy her.


This is such a good and unambiguous objective. You are clearly seeking to move out of infidelity and I sense that you are moving forward in becoming a healthier and holier person. Well done!
I pray that your WW is making the same journey, and you will have the courage and persistence to walk with her.

But one favour I would ask of you - I conjure up an image whenever I see your name "Inkhulk" – have you ever had a cartoon caricature drawn of this fascinating name?
If so, then please post it.
Kind regards,
FAWH

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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 6:15 PM on Wednesday, April 12th, 2023

@InkHulk, I am sorry but I believe you are still missing some things. This isn't about punishing your WW vs extending grace. That is a false choice.

Let us look at the situation. Your WW's actions indicate that she is deeply unsafe. You need her to be pushing hard to make herself safe. She is not pushing that hard, at least that is what I am getting from your threads that is. Alright then, if you still want R, then you need to be setting conditions that your WW push harder to make herself safe. YOU are not. You are instead making excuses about your WW being too fragile.

I will elaborate. You need to be able to open up and have your WW open up to you. Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but you don't really have that right now. It seems that the conditions you have in place, she will only do this in front of your MC. Who seems to be taking her side on too many things e.g., accepting WW's explanations as the truth when there should be more cross-examination. Can't you see how the way you've allowed this to be set up, does not serve you? You will be moving awfully slowly with those conditions in place my friend.

So you justify this with the narrative that your WW has problems expressing anger. Wait a second--doesn't your WW have no problems blowing up at you expressing *her* anger with *her* defensiveness?

I hope you are reading some of the other threads on here. I don't know how much we are allowed to say about these other threads on here but here goes: There is in particular a thread in the Reconciliation Forum (currently active thread as of 4/12/2023) about a couple who are now divorced, who are working towards R. The BH took a much harder tack than you did (he filed for D) even though his WW's affair was (air-quote) not nearly as bad (air-unquote) as your WW's affair. And his WW appears to have actually done the work to make herself safe.

Anyways I betcha your march towards R would move much faster if you were to tell your WW that her efforts right now won't do and that for R to have any chance you need her to move faster.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:01 PM, Wednesday, April 12th]

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:34 PM on Wednesday, April 12th, 2023

I love reading your posts and threads, I get so much out them. So many good thoughts to ponder.

Thanks for the kind words and the support you’ve shown over this horrible time in my life.

But one favour I would ask of you - I conjure up an image whenever I see your name "Inkhulk" – have you ever had a cartoon caricature drawn of this fascinating name?
If so, then please post it.

Well, one thing I am not is an artist, so having a custom image is not something you are going to get from me. My screen name was a drunk decision on D-Day +1, but it has become meaningful to me. You’ve got me thinking about a tattoo. If anyone out there is an artist, I’d be all about some concept art business.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 9:10 PM on Wednesday, April 12th, 2023

Best I could find so far, could make a hell of a tattoo

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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Superesse ( member #60731) posted at 11:02 PM on Wednesday, April 12th, 2023

Yeah, no....don't do it. Although, gotta admit, the raging man expression is so very fitting. Time and a place for everything.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:59 AM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

I don’t know, this just might have to happen.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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FindingaWayHome ( member #78829) posted at 3:09 AM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

I'm a fan of the Hulk - and you write like Bruce Banner.
And I've felt the way that image portrays (more an icy cold rage).

Somehow, the image seems to miss something of your nature.
Perhaps the Hulk with glasses? Or sitting at a desk with a quill raging with words.
How do you perceive yourself?
FAWH

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:01 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

Let us look at the situation. Your WW's actions indicate that she is deeply unsafe. You need her to be pushing hard to make herself safe. She is not pushing that hard, at least that is what I am getting from your threads that is.

I don’t actually give all that much information about what my wife is doing. But even what I do share should be showing that she is working to better herself. You can look at my "Inner Critic" thread. She is consuming audio books faster than I can really keep track of (she can listen at work). Last night we went for a date and she started talking about things from a book on emotional intelligence and was quoting Aristotle on appropriate anger. Hulk Impressed! You are making too many assumptions.

Alright then, if you still want R, then you need to be setting conditions that your WW push harder to make herself safe. YOU are not. You are instead making excuses about your WW being too fragile.

Thanks again for the instructions. I’m not making excuses for shit. I am navigating the reality of the hand I’ve been dealt. With respect to emotional expression and emotional intelligence, she started her adult life in a hole. And then the A was like her trying to dig a hole to China. Part of her work is to climb out of that. Are you really surprised when you hear she is still struggling, that she isn’t done yet? Why would that surprise you? If I told you she was miraculously changed you’d be telling me that it’s all an act and the A is deep underground. So unless you can conceive to hear something from me that would make you think things are ok, I won’t keep listening to you. I’m well past the days of cloak and dagger. Yes, she could relapse, she could even have never stopped contact. But I’m walking toward the life I want and she is walking with me. If she falls, I’ll pick her up. If she turns around, I’ll let her go.

I hope you are reading some of the other threads on here. I don't know how much we are allowed to say about these other threads on here but here goes: There is in particular a thread in the Reconciliation Forum (currently active thread as of 4/12/2023) about a couple who are now divorced, who are working towards R. The BH took a much harder tack than you did (he filed for D) even though his WW's affair was (air-quote) not nearly as bad (air-unquote) as your WW's affair. And his WW appears to have actually done the work to make herself safe.

I’m not currently following that thread. I have asked the broader community to weigh in on this question of whether there is a correlation between hard-assery and good outcomes in R. I’ve been very interested in the results so far. I promise to read all the responses and not just go for confirmation bias. I hope you will too.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:15 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

I'm a fan of the Hulk - and you write like Bruce Banner.

And I've felt the way that image portrays (more an icy cold rage).

And certainly infidelity has brought out intensity of emotion, including rage, that I didn’t know was there before.

Somehow, the image seems to miss something of your nature.

Perhaps the Hulk with glasses? Or sitting at a desk with a quill raging with words.

How do you perceive yourself?

I was looking for something under "professor hulk" when I found this one and the inky blackness along with the rage really grabbed my attention. I’d say there is a 80% chance that I’ll get that or something similar tattoo’d. I think it would be a meaningful expression of this monumental life event.

How do I perceive myself? Peaceable but not nice. Intelligent but practical. Religious and a little crass. Just human.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 4:11 PM, Thursday, May 25th]

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:18 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

...you need to be setting conditions that your WW push harder to make herself safe.

I've lost track, but ...

I think this assertion is wrong. One makes a judgment of the safety of another person. I don't know how safe my W is, because I can't really see inside her. All I can do is decide to treat her as a safe person or not. My W can't make herself safe. It's only that I decide what is safe for me.

In another sense, though, the quote does touch on a critical point: you, inkhulk, need to push yourself to determine your requirements for R, and you need to communicate with your WS to find out if they'll sign on. If they won't, you can possibly negotiate something that will give you both what you want, but if you can't, your best bet is almost definitely to fold and split the remaining pot.

R means you heal you, your WS heals themself, and together you build an M that you both want. If you have different views of what that new M is going to be, you don't have a good fit.

As I say, I've lost track of what you've done - but if you haven't defined your requirements for R and gotten signon from your WS, you have work to do.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:22 PM, Thursday, April 13th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 4:14 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

As I say, I've lost track of what you've done - but if you haven't defined your requirements for R and gotten signon from your WS, you have work to do.

Laid out on page 10 on this thread, they were first formed probably 6 months ago and have been my guiding star. Wife knows and we talk about them. I appreciate the input, I know I talk a lot.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 4:59 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

sisoon:

I've lost track, but ...

I think this assertion is wrong. One makes a judgment of the safety of another person. I don't know how safe my W is, because I can't really see inside her. All I can do is decide to treat her as a safe person or not. My W can't make herself safe. It's only that I decide what is safe for me.

I have to stand by what I wrote (although I do see your point about how we can't see for sure whether someone is 'safe'). InkHulk's WW's coping mechanisms have been to..*ahem*...rugsweep her anger and let her resentments stew there. Even now....it appears that WW will only open up to InkHulk when she is in the MC's office--with a MC who seems to have some bad takes too!

How long has this been going on? 9 months?? Damn....after all she put our friend InkHulk through, you figure she'd be trying much harder than she seems to be to help in the healing. And that OP would be putting his foot down more.

Imma gonna stop here.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:06 PM, Thursday, April 13th]

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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 5:31 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

Somehow, the image seems to miss something of your nature.
Perhaps the Hulk with glasses? Or sitting at a desk with a quill raging with words.

It's not quite the image that the alias brings up for me either. InkHulk really is an evocative moniker - I think a "professorial Hulk" makes the most sense to me too, though I will certainly confess I'm no Marvel universe expert. I do picture you channeling your rage/giant emotions into your words - the pen is mightier than the sword, after all.

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 5:32 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

I think sometimes the fear that the WS might relapse or that we may have been fooled again is what fuels this notion that we have to be "tough". Problem is, there's no amount of toughness which can truly insulate us from being hurt again. Some WS's do relapse and some do fool their BS. We hear about it all the time. It's awful. But that's not all the time and it's not even most of the time.

Hypervigilance can't protect us, not if we're determined to leap back into intimate relationships again. In some ways, it's a product of brain function during trauma. The amygdala seem to be stuck somehow, triggering a biochemical stress response which can feel exhausting after awhile. When we really start digging in to our Fear of Abandonment though, it's not logical. In The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk, the author points out that the connection between the prefrontal cortex (judgement) and the amygdala (fight, flight, freeze) is kind of tenuous. You can't really talk yourself out of trauma. That doesn't mean we can't grow into a better understanding of where those abandonment fears are coming from. Once you really understand that it's a false reflex at this point, sort of a secret stowaway from infancy, we can use that knowledge to start investing in our own resilience.

I won't say that my fWH can't hurt me anymore. That's not true. If I found out that I had judged poorly and that he had fooled me, I'd be really sad... but not destroyed. And that's the difference. I really was destroyed in this. Bug meets windshield. Everything I knew, everything I believed in. somehow got tied up into this trauma. Everything. Love, commitment, identity, family, faith, fate, luck, you name it. This broke me. I've had to rebuild from scratch in many respects. That process happened. It can't unhappen. I'm a different, stronger person than I was when this all went down.

In some ways, our fear of getting hurt again is a false fear, and not because it can't happen again or because it won't hurt, but because we are STRONGER for having had this experience already. It tempers us like steel and we're not even aware of how much we've grown. On dday, something is severed, leaving us scrambling for a fingernail hold in a world that suddenly doesn't make sense anymore. We have to right that world on our own, and having done it, it can't be undone. Now that we KNOW we are enough and that we can handle whatever's thrown at us, we're fearing something that can't ever happen to us again in the same way it happened before. WE grow and change, and yeah.. it's painful, but we become strong. It's like relationship bulletproofing. They can wing us, but we'll never get got through the heart again. wink

R requires vulnerability. It requires risk. There's no way to insulate ourselves emotionally from that because what we're talking about is essentially an emotional relationship. If you read a copy of What Makes Love Last by John Gottman, you'll see that trust is a multifaceted concept. What I found is that I could allow vulnerability as long as I had faith in my ability to recover if I was proved wrong in my trust. IOW, the one I most needed to trust was ME. I needed to have faith in my own resilience, in my back-up plan, in my growth. The infidelity had shifted my dependence from "us" to "me". Instead of enmeshment, I could seek out sharing. Instead of "two halves making a whole", "two wholes working in harmony". Instead of reliance, enjoyment.

Anyway, long post made shorter, boundaries are important, but the purpose of them is to create a healthy amount of separation from others, to define where we begin and others end, so that we will recognize when our agency is being abused and vice versa. It's a weird-sounding dynamic but in order to get close to someone, to be vulnerable, maintaining a sense of separation and breaking away from enmeshment can give us the freedom to engage. It can alleviate fears and create stability. I hope that makes sense to you. It's a tough concept to describe. blush

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:05 PM on Thursday, April 13th, 2023

It's not quite the image that the alias brings up for me either. InkHulk really is an evocative moniker - I think a "professorial Hulk" makes the most sense to me too

Something like this?

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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