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In the spirit of giving positive updates, I want to report that my wife and I had a very positive conversation last night as we went to bed. We started talking about a difficult subject. It started to have some tension in it, and we both almost went down old paths of giving up. But we didn’t, and we kept talking until both of us felt understood. We both cried a little at the end. It was a little spot of beauty, and if nothing else it reminded us that we can do that and we both want it.

...we kept talking until both of us felt understood.

This is probably the best relationship skill a person can have. So much is lost in communication and we never really know what the other person is hearing and what they're carrying away from the exchange. To exercise the kind of patience it takes to be clear with each other can be exhausting, but so worth it.

Well, I just took in 12 pages of written responses. A few parts that made me wince, I’m going to have to read it a few times to let it sink in. But that happened. I’m ok. She must have spent a lot of time writing all that. It sounds true to my ear. I think I have enough of the "what" at this point. There is bound to be some follow up, but it’s time to move into "why" and "now what".

IH -

There is bound to be some follow up, but it’s time to move into "why" and "now what".

Your brain will definitely put some of the toughest part of the what on a loop for a while — it sounds like a LOT to process. My wife did write stuff down, she is an engineer, so it was in an Excel format. I chose NOT to read it, I didn’t want ruthless efficiency, it was more important she own it all. So, I asked her to tell me what was on it instead.

Good step though. When my wife was finally brave enough to tell me what I was being asked to accept, it allowed me to really figure out if I COULD accept it enough for us to move forward.

As to the why. Well, it can be far more maddening than the what.

Since it is a choice I haven’t made, it will never fully make sense.

However, for me, it was the hostage exchange moment. Exploring the why was about feeling safe and loved and my wife was wanting to earn back trust and love.

Balance is tough in any relationship sans infidelity. It’s a LOT of work to find a way to be vulnerable/all in/moving back toward each other — reminds me of how hard R is.

Back to the why. As I tend to say, I’m not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV, but when I shake my family tree, three PhD psychologists fall out. One a former trauma specialist at Johns Hopkins, one a professor, and the other with a 40-year practice. I had a lot of experience and wisdom to lean on, here at SI and at home.

In essence, beyond the unmet needs fallacy, which will kill most R attempts, your wife’s work is to own it and not blame you or the M. In any way.

Mitigating factors are important, they simply don’t make your future safe. The next time a WS is feeling low and their esteem is dragging on the ground, how do they cope with those feelings when they inevitably occur again? An A can be a powerful empowerment drug for a self diagnosed lost soul.

My own conclusions are the FOO issues matter. The circumstances matter. Destroying the escapist fantasy rationalizations are critical.

And yet, you’re asking a person who is trapped in a shame spiral to gain enough strength to validate herself, so she doesn’t seek validation outside of the M.

That’s a substantial evolution.

I think that likely has to be a big part of what’s next.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 1:05 PM, Tuesday, May 9th]

Mitigating factors are important, they simply don’t make your future safe. The next time a WS is feeling low and their esteem is dragging on the ground, how do they cope with those feelings when they inevitably occur again? An A can be a powerful empowerment drug for a self diagnosed lost soul.

This. You're not going to find answers or comfort in the why. Wayward thought processes are illogical at best. The only reason to delve into them is more about how to prevent it from happening again than understanding why the WS did what they did.

The only reason to delve into them is more about how to prevent it from happening again than understanding why the WS did what they did.

Seems like a pretty good reason in itself.

Seems like a pretty good reason in itself.

Yes. I was trying to say finding the why is only half of it, the other half is what your wife does with this gift your are offering, this chance for for positive changes for her — that she will need whether or not you two reconcile.

That's good news

Here's a different POV on the 'whys'.

'Why' is about the past. R is about the future. I frame the WS's work as 'change from betrayer to good partner'. That often requires getting into 'why', but it really requires the WS to short-circuit the thinking that enabled cheating and instead to think always in terms of 'what is a next healthy step?' (I write 'a next healthy step' because usually there are multiple healthy ways to handle situations.)

WRT my W's 'why', I know her thought process, but I'll never understand it. There were so many spots where she just had to say 'no,' and the consequences of not saying 'no' were so predictable and predictably bad that ... I'll never understand why she continued on her doomed path. Fortunately, understanding isn't necessary.

*****

Have you ever considered D? My reco is to R only if it's what you really want. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with your W?

IMO, R works best if it's a positive desire. As a default, I suspect results are likely to be mediocre.

Have you ever considered D? My reco is to R only if it's what you really want. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with your W?

IMO, R works best if it's a positive desire. As a default, I suspect results are likely to be mediocre.

I can say that I’ve made D the default in my thinking. I do genuinely believe that if she takes a hard stance against any of my R requirements that I will walk. But that is a somewhat different thing than what I think you are asking. Do I really desire to spend the rest of my life with my wife? That is a harder question to definitively answer. I told myself I wouldn’t make any definitive choices for a year, unless she totally went off the ranch, and that was to give myself time to figure out what I want. And as I alluded to a few posts back, I’m just now opening my eyes to how little I know my own needs and how poor I am at prioritizing them. So the best I can think of to positively answer that question is I do love my wife and I can imagine a good life with her. For me to recommit my life to her, I will have to deeply feel loved and respected by her. No convincing myself, no forever putting my basic needs on the back burner. No KISA saving her from her issues. I need to feel it in my heart and soul. And if that can happen, then I would love to live out my days with my wife. And if it doesn’t, for whatever reason, then I need to go. The question remains of how long I’m willing to invest to make that evaluation. I’m just weeks into feeling like my own sanity has returned, and there is still much to address in terms of ways I’ve hurt her and FOO stuff for both of us and dysfunctional relationship dynamics. But if there is progress and good faith and a base level of love, I will try for this.

Edit to add: I admit that divorce is a terrifying prospect to me based off my parents’ horrific drawn out separation. I have no doubt that factors into me pushing harder to try for R than some other might.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:42 PM, Tuesday, May 9th]

Ink, I am 60,so times were different when I was born. I'm the OC from an A. My mom wasn't the type to be without male companioship.

I don't remember long, drawn out separations. I do remember thinking that I never wanted to have my kids be brought up in a broken home.

What I didn't realize was that there are worse abusive situations than being brought up in a broken home.

What you think is important may not be what your children think is important.

What I didn't realize was that there are worse abusive situations than being brought up in a broken home.

What you think is important may not be what your children think is important.

Yes, you are right. I remember someone pointing this out to me on my JFO thread. I’m not doing this "for the kids". The tragic truth is this affair is going to scar the kids no matter what path we take. Damage is already done, and there will be more. I want to minimize it, but I honestly don’t know how to best do that at this point.

Another positive report: I was quite agitated yesterday after reading those 12 pages. Lots of things swirling in my head. I sent her some messages, enough for her to know I was upset. Not raging or anything, but stirred up and struggling. It’s very much her MO to avoid me in those times, say she can’t handle those emotions from me. What am I saying, you guys all know this already. But last night she surprised me. She invited me to a "vent-fest". She said she would lean into it. We agreed on a few ground rules, read aloud the four horsemen and their antidotes (from the book of John ) and we sat and talked our hearts out for an hour or so. That, my friends, is what I want, even what I need to feel loved. And it was beautiful.

That, my friends, is what I want, even what I need to feel loved. And it was beautiful.

Very cool. Take the good moments whenever possible and hopefully you can build on this. It is still 2-steps forward, 4-steps back along the way.

And as I alluded to a few posts back, I’m just now opening my eyes to how little I know my own needs and how poor I am at prioritizing them.

I think this is a huge realization. I went through the same process after putting family, friends, and my M ahead of my own needs for decades. Now, since my wife kept the A secret for so long, I did things ass backwards — reset my priorities BEFORE she confessed the A (although my own changes about including myself as a priority may have helped her choose to tell me my reality). So, I had to reset my reset after discovery — most mindsets are scrambled on our worse ever days.

I found that once I knew what I really wanted from life, once I knew I would be GREAT, with or without my M, that strength helped me establish the boundaries I would need in ANY relationship going forward. Be it rebuilding my M or with humans in general. I don’t accept ill behavior now from anyone in my life, ever.

But we didn’t, and we kept talking until both of us felt understood. We both cried a little at the end. It was a little spot of beauty, and if nothing else it reminded us that we can do that and we both want it.

But last night she surprised me. She invited me to a "vent-fest". She said she would lean into it. We agreed on a few ground rules, read aloud the four horsemen and their antidotes (from the book of John ) and we sat and talked our hearts out for an hour or so. That, my friends, is what I want, even what I need to feel loved. And it was beautiful.

Truly happy for you both. You also did it on your own, without a third party mediator. That's really great progress.

For me to recommit my life to her, I will have to deeply feel loved and respected by her. No convincing myself, no forever putting my basic needs on the back burner. No KISA saving her from her issues. I need to feel it in my heart and soul. And if that can happen, then I would love to live out my days with my wife. And if it doesn’t, for whatever reason, then I need to go.

This seems like a healthy approach. You deserve nothing less.

I am thrilled to hear that you are becoming in touch with YOUR needs, and that moving forward you have decided that you will NOT accept anything less than what you deserve from your wife and your marriage, @InkHulk. Looks like a positive development all round!

Looks like a positive development all round!

Well look at that, we can agree sometimes after all Thank you for your kind words and your voice prompting me to take care of myself.

I think this is a huge realization. I went through the same process after putting family, friends, and my M ahead of my own needs for decades.

Got any suggestions for a rookie? Books, practices, mental implant to help me know myself?

Hi IH,

I often find it meaningful to read your threads. For they speak of a man struggling with challenging circumstances - yet a person who is seeking to find a way through them and out of infidelity.

Your recent postings, however, have given me a special joy, as it appears that despite the challenges of the past week, you and your wife have both taken steps forward in your relationship and how you are dealing with your situation.
And I continue to perceive a man who is changing as a result of this crisis.

A while ago I asked if

you ever had a cartoon caricature drawn of this fascinating name? (12th April),

and later

How do you perceive yourself?

The next question concerns how you may choose to grow and change as a person (son, sibling, husband, father, Christian...).
So how do you perceive yourself growing and developing as a person into the future?
I'm really encouraged by what I see so far.
FAWH

Got any suggestions for a rookie?

My reco is to separate what you want from what you will do.

Every day we're faced with decisions about actions. Knowing what you want is crucial. It is not, however, the only input into decisions. We usually need to balance numerous considerations. I'm sitting here still recover from bronchitis. It's a beautiful day, and I'd love to take a long bike ride, but I just don't have the energy. I also need to get a chest x-ray, and I have a meeting I'd like to attend at noon and a presentation on covid at 4 PM. Oh ... it would be good to do a load of laundry, too. I'm not even considering what my W wants (which is basically to cater to the bronchitis, nap, take a bath, call my doc, so it's not that she wants me to do thing for her directly).

I don't know exactly what I'll do today, but knowing what I want gives me a start in getting it.

I'd blow it all for a long ride, though. If only I weren't as weak as a kitten....

In any case, know what you want. Know what demands you really have to meet now. Figure out how to get as much of what you want as you can get.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:09 PM, Thursday, May 11th]