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I’m going to threadjack my own thread here a little. As I mentioned, we had a MC session yesterday that I got some questions answered at. One thing I asked was about her motive of joining the hobby I mention in my previous thread. I have maintained in my mind that she did it to spend time with POSOM. She claims that was not the primary motive but it was to give our son an activity to replace one he lost due to the pandemic. I told her in session that I have believed what she had told me since her second confession, but this is hard for me to believe.
Both of these are highly problematic. If it’s the first, then she used our kids as a cover to further the affair, and possibly even intentionally introduce them to him. If it’s the second, it speaks to a level of complete irrationality and delusion that scares me. Is that my wife, could she really be so foolish and callous to not see enormous problems with bringing our children into his presence? Does she have no failsafes in her? Can this all just be chalked up to "affair fog"?
I’m leaning toward the second option being true and believing her, but I’m not sure it’s a better option. Interested in others perspective.

Can this all just be chalked up to "affair fog"?

I think cognitive dissonance is the description psychologists utilize.

To make the fantasy real, reality has to vanish. Shoved into compartmentalization, the 'new' escapist bullshit world has to exist.

Does she have no failsafes in her?

Not once a WS decides to go all in, after their time on the slippery slope (it won't get THAT far), etc.

That's zero boundaries once that happens.

So, a couple things I had to determine:

Was this amoral behavior OUT of character for my wife, or just another day at the office?

Some WS are unable to build back the esteem and the boundaries they need to stay off the slippery slope, some learn a great deal from their worst days and have far stronger boundaries on the other side of their work. I had to determine which kind of WS (and a lot range in between the examples above) my wife was.

My wife would drop our kids off to be watched by OBS to go hang out with AP. How far can one fall? Pretty far actually.

Once the shock and awe of it is processed, I was able to focus on the changes my wife made versus just how bad things were during the A.

Sorry, I could probably dig through all of your threads to sort out the answer, but can you clarify whether the A had already begun when she began the activity? I was under the impression they met AT the activity.

Regardless, I think people often have several motives for any particular action. Could both be true? I can imagine her wanting your son to have an activity and then picking that specific activity for another reason for example. It may be hard to pick out the most significant motivator for any one decision years later with the benefit of time and hindsight.

Sorry, I could probably dig through all of your threads to sort out the answer, but can you clarify whether the A had already begun when she began the activity? I was under the impression they met AT the activity.

This story evolved in my JFO thread, the confusion is understandable. Initially she told me she met him there, or reconnected anyway as she knew him from high school. But once she broke on her initial lies, it came clear that they had been full on PA for months before joining the hobby.

If it’s the second, it speaks to a level of complete irrationality and delusion that scares me. Is that my wife, could she really be so foolish and callous to not see enormous problems with bringing our children into his presence? Does she have no failsafes in her? Can this all just be chalked up to "affair fog"?

Irrationally and delusion are kind of part and parcel of affair behaviour. I mean, she had an affair - she clearly was not exercising good logic or failsafes. I don't say this dismissively, because I think we all have particular details of our own stories that stick in our craws because they are so hurtful, or stupid, or otherwise incomprehensible to us. I agree with Oldwoulds that the important thing for you to work out is whether this is truly out of character for or part of who she is.

Is that my wife, could she really be so foolish and callous to not see enormous problems with bringing our children into his presence? Does she have no failsafes in her? Can this all just be chalked up to "affair fog"?

It's been my experience that yeah, the disconnect really is that big. My WS was rationalizing his behavior like it was an Olympic sport. He had gone on a Craigslist binge looking for strange and by the time I caught up with him he'd had three different AP's with varying amounts of emotional attachments. One of the highlights of his disconnect from reality is when, after dday, he told me I'd probably really like OW#2. After all, she was only cheating on her husband in retaliation for her husband having cheated on her.

Yeah. Wow, right? He didn't even hear himself. He's standing there, looking at me (A WOMAN WHOSE HUSBAND IS CHEATING ON HER) and expecting me to feel sympathy for the woman who's fucking MY husband in a revenge affair. Even now I don't know how I resisted the urge to send him out for a CAT scan.

The long and short is that your WW probably is/was that messed up in her mind. They don't see an "other" when they're looking at the AP. All the rationalizations and hormones, more often than not, give them what basically amounts to beer goggles. They seem to have unaccountable trust for these people who are demonstrably willing to be complicit in deliberate, deceitful actions. It's like some horrible mental/biological cocktail of delusion and the WS can't (or won't) see the truth of what a scummy thing it is. All they see is their "friend". It kind of reminds me of the first time a dentist gave me nitrous. I knew she was literally ripping a tooth out of my jaw with a pair of pliers, but all I could think of was what a lovely new friend I'd made and how she would never hurt me. Delusional and on drugs. It's kind of like that, isn't it?

Not once a WS decides to go all in, after their time on the slippery slope (it won't get THAT far), etc.

That's zero boundaries once that happens.

This can only go so far, right? Like at one point POSOM was goading my wife toward lesbian activity or maybe a threesome including his wife, and when she told me that she had this disgust in her face and voice that I interpreted as her saying "I would never do THAT." Maybe she was delusional and trying to recapture some dignity, I don’t know. But things could have always been worse. She could have gotten into a child human trafficking network with some heroin dealing on the side. She didn’t go THAT far, so there must be some human thought still in there, right? All she did was traumatize our children by involving them in her affair. Could have been worse But if it could have been, why wasn’t it? Where were her lines, and why wasn’t shielding our kids behind those lines? I know you can’t tell me, probably no one can. But it matters to me.

I know you can’t tell me, probably no one can. But it matters to me.

No, I can't tell you.

I imagine my wife may have had limits, but the only time she ever told him, "no" in all those years was two years after he dumped her harshly. Because we were now out of state, he could control a new A from a safe distance. When he asked to start it up again, his story and 'new' feelings for her rang hollow and she turned him away (finally).

But I had to know how our family became invisible, best I could understand a choice I've not made. I had to know why our kids were there for several of their A moments. I have to know how much adversity in our lives could trigger irrational behavior now.

It does matter, and that's why the very, very hard questions and conversations need to be had.

I've not had to live a double life, but I do believe WS lie to themselves as much or more than us during an A to keep the escape going, to keep the validation going.

That's also why a WS has to look into those choices, past the shame they may have now. Truth is self evident. The hardest part of infidelity is revealing the truth of the moment, the character of the moment and again, try to see if it was an aberation or as I noted before, just another day at the office.

They seem to have unaccountable trust for these people who are demonstrably willing to be complicit in deliberate, deceitful actions.

This is really tough for me. Why the hell did she trust this POS? He’s a scumbag, like literally the worst person who has been a part of her life, in my obviously biased opinion. And all the while she has had this holding back of trust to me. Cause what have I done besides loving and marrying her, provided a great life and secure future, and have children with her?

I agree with Oldwoulds that the important thing for you to work out is whether this is truly out of character for or part of who she is.

Well, how do you do that? I was immensely shocked. Everyone who has found out has been shocked. By all external appearances, it’s completely out of character. It’s against strongly held (I think) moral and religious beliefs of hers. But of course she did it. For years. (I hate that part, the length of time just grates on me). She has personality traits that line up with stereotypical waywardism, like conflict avoidance and people pleasing. Before all this, I never would have known those were associated with cheating, they seem like fairly innocuous quirks. She is working on those, but it is a big undertaking. So I don’t know how to answer that well. She deeply wants emotional connection but lacks the social skills to navigate the conflicts that come with getting close to people with competing needs. POSOM fed her kibbles, she reciprocated, zero conflict, BOOM, conflict free connection. It’s so damn easy. Will she go for it again some day? Hard to say.

This is really tough for me. Why the hell did she trust this POS? He’s a scumbag, like literally the worst person who has been a part of her life, in my obviously biased opinion. And all the while she has had this holding back of trust to me. Cause what have I done besides loving and marrying her, provided a great life and secure future, and have children with her?

I know. Its like they're pod people. I was so stricken by the duality in my fWH at the time. It felt like he was two people and I'd get glimpses of the one I knew, but also terrifying peeks at the one I didn't. The thing we have to reconcile, I believe anyway, is that the WS really is BOTH those people. For me, it's about core values and character. Until we can be reasonably certain that the WS sees their rationalizations, the mental gymnastics which allowed them to betray the one person they had promised never to betray, that duality can't be resolved. The pod person has to change and change big. The WS has to absorb both these personalities because you can't fix what you won't see about yourself.

I don't know if that makes sense or not. It sounded better in my head.

Your last several posts are all questions I am certain I posted here on SI during my first two years.

Same exact questions and observations:

Well, how do you do that? I was immensely shocked.

Seven years in, I know I will always hate what happened. I’m never going to wake up one morning and be happy my wife did what she did. For years.

I can’t say I’m as shocked anymore, I’ve read so many stories of infidelity, the behavior most WS fall into is standard.

How to tell true character? For my two cents, character can absolutely be malleable under duress, not for everyone, but for many of the more vulnerable personalities who need constant validation or ways to boost their low esteem.

My wife is a beautiful, brilliant person who was constantly hit on over the years, she seemed to have incredible boundaries. Then, she was postpartum depressed, far away from family and friends, and the job she just took was going horribly. Family friend AP and coworker arrived to her rescue. Of all the guys that ever hit on her, AP was the least threatening to me. An older, bone skinny little guy, who I never imagined my wife would look at twice, much less an LTA.

I asked what the difference was, why THIS guy? He didn’t make more money, he wasn’t bigger, stronger, smarter than me, I didn’t get it. She said all the other times men hit on her, she felt great about herself and our M. She didn’t blink. It’s when she felt bad about everything in her life that she became vulnerable.

I needed to know the next time she was having a bad time, she didn’t need the same form of validation.

She didn’t confess until years later, but during that time, men were really her enemy overall. All men. Me included. She put herself on an emotional island and didn’t let anyone in. She was in a trust no one mode for years after the A. It was a key though, to learning to value herself.

Overall, my wife is a very good mother, she’s a kind daughter, caring sister, at work she’s in management and has great empathy for hard working employees and actually cares about how they are and how she can help. She’s a very good person who on her worst days did horrific things. She is the total sum of all the good and bad in life, and the good far outnumbers the bad (even the shocking stuff during the A).

At this point, I’m very comfortable knowing my wife’s actions were very out of character.

Now, the bigger question is how can you ever feel safe again in your M?

Actions. Hundreds of consistent actions that SHOW she cares about the pain she caused, and actions showing stronger boundaries and rebuilding her own value (that shame spiral can be a burden to the strongest WS) to not want or need to feel better via the opinions of others.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 9:20 PM, Friday, March 31st]

Maybe define "pod people"? Can’t say I know what you mean there.

Sorry. Showing my age there, I think.

It's an old horror movie reference from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. The plot is very much like the title. Looks like someone you know, but instead, a space alien in human form.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:32 PM, Friday, March 31st]

I was immensely shocked. Everyone who has found out has been shocked. By all external appearances, it’s completely out of character. It’s against strongly held (I think) moral and religious beliefs of hers. But of course she did it. For years. (I hate that part, the length of time just grates on me). She has personality traits that line up with stereotypical waywardism, like conflict avoidance and people pleasing. Before all this, I never would have known those were associated with cheating, they seem like fairly innocuous quirks. Sh

I'm right there with you. If anyone found out about my WHs affair, they would likely accuse ME of lying. That's how out of character people would see it. He is also conflict avoidant as well as a people pleaser. These are overall very weak minded people in my experience. It leads to resentment where they feel they are OWED something and that selfishness allows them to cross lines imo.

These are overall very weak minded people in my experience. It leads to resentment where they feel they are OWED something and that selfishness allows them to cross lines imo.

The term "weak minded" doesn’t sit well with me. That might be more of a me problem, but I couldn’t use it for feeling it to be too condescending. No judgment, just reacting to that.
My wife has had SOOOO many resentments over the years, and I’ve only sort of understood it. I’ve known she refused to genuinely resolve issues, and then it would make sense that would simmer underneath somewhat. But damned if I haven’t tried to get at some of them, asking, guessing, apologizing at random to see if I could hit on something. But I think I always assumed that if she refused to talk about it, it wasn’t really that bad. But oh was I wrong there. It was like emotional bulimia, starving herself of what she needed until losing all control and binging. But you can’t purge this shit. Whether or not she felt she was owed, I’m not sure. But I think she wanted it so bad and her FOO and trauma was blocking all her legitimate ways of getting it, and she broke when the opportunity arose. That is the story I tell myself, anyway.

Going to sign off for the weekend. Like I mentioned, we are going to Retrovaille this weekend, I’m sure I’ll be pretty technology free. As always, greatly appreciate everyone’s time and support.

I’m hoping that your weekend is productive but this statement stood out to me.

all the while she has had this holding back of trust to me. Cause what have I done besides loving and marrying her, provided a great life and secure future, and have children with her?

I wonder how much she trusted that love you had for her prior to the A. I wonder if she felt that she was deserving of it.

In my personal experience I had a difficult time accepting that my husband loved me for who I am. I had come up with some crazy idea in my head that he was with me until someone better came along. He had settled for me. Because I felt that way, a part of my affair was about hurting him before he had the chance to hurt me. Affairs are complicated and there was so much more to it, but each thread you pull can help find that path to healing for both of you.

I will be curious to see how your weekend went.

Is the construct created by InkHulk’s WW and WOES, for example, become understood during the A, or is it only understood only as a result of IC, introspection, snd doing the work? Or, is it a combination of both?

If it’s only understood in the wake of the A, though IC and doing the work, I wonder how does one really know whether it’s a construct created because what else could have caused me to do such a terrible thing to my BS, or is it something real, unknown during the A, but uncovered by a good therapist?

I hope this question makes sense.

Dude67, you ask a great question! 👏🏻