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Perhaps a good strategy is for you to present the remaining unanswered questions in writing snd for her to answer in writing. Perhaps she answers ten questions per week in writing, so as not to overwhelm but also so she can answer with sufficient depth.

She has the questions, that was what sparked the last blow up where I went quiet for a while. But says she has written down answers, not sure how many, but she has implied a decent number. We’ll see how it goes.

At MC, do not address the minutiae of each and every question. Address the larger topics, the most salient issues, and perhaps a couple of the questions that stand out to you as being part of these larger, salient issues.

It’s good advice.

But for all these kinds of strategies, this thing where she goes into herself needs to change. I need it to change for R, and frankly I just need it to change so I can have a partner that I can emotionally connect with. I hope this thing is curable. I don’t know how to think about that. I love this woman, but there is this part about her, seemingly a psychological condition probably due to trauma, that makes her incompatible with me? That sounds so depressing.

I hope that she believes that you are losing patience.

Me too.

You must open your mind to a world of depressing possibilities and choose the least depressing among them.

How do you react to your W's crying and shame spiral?

If she cried tears of sadness I would comfort her. When she shame spirals, she gets mean and defensive and to that I get extremely upset. That is what is taking me to the end of my patience.

A few months after our wedding, my W cried during conflicts. (It turned out to be a side-effect of The Pill.) I refused to be manipulated

This touches into my own childhood issues. My mother had a double black belt in emotional manipulation. When I entered my marriage I was very cautious about that. I’m sure I told myself I was being all logical and rationale and stupid shit like that, but in reality I was reacting to my past. That interacted with my wife’s natural tendencies to hide emotion disasterously because when she did dare to cry (early in our marriage) I was very put off. I’ve recognized and course corrected but I think she still subconsciously (or consciously) holds that against me.

Was that a written exchange?

Yes, messaging from the airport.

One of the things I got from therapy was, 'Say it so a 6 year old would understand.'

I hear you saying (again) that I’m wordy. Fair enough.

Good Grief. Her spiel about being a people-pleaser and "I did not please you" (referring to her affair). Well if that is not Understatement Of The Year!

This read to me like some contorted backwards-rationalisation of some further awful post-DDay behavior on your WW's part. 'I can't be empathetic with you in real-time because of my extreme empathy for you'...my head hurt reading that!

She does seem to have a talent spinning herself as some sort of sympathetic figure. (Didn't you say her IC loves her? I wonder what they talk about, if your WW's IC is even holding her accountable.) How much longer can you take this? It is your life, friend, you deserve MUCH better and you sure do not have to live this way....

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:08 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

How much longer can you take this?

Good Grief. Her spiel about being a people-pleaser and "I did not please you" (referring to her affair). Well if that is not Understatement Of The Year!

This read to me like some contorted backwards-rationalisation of some further awful post-DDay behavior on your WW's part. 'I can't be empathetic with you in real-time because of my extreme empathy for you'...my head hurt reading that!

She does seem to have a talent spinning herself as some sort of sympathetic figure.

I don’t know man, let’s at least give credit where credit is due. That is the most cynical take on my wife’s words that I can imagine. We rail on waywards to introspect and understand themselves. She just strung together a string of why’s three layers deep (poor behavior from toxic shame from emotional flashbacks from childhood trauma). For any people who have had affairs following along, I imagine it would be pretty disheartening to see that called self serving garbage. I don’t see it that way. I see it that we have found a "must fix" issue, and it’s pretty damn urgent. I honestly don’t understand where you all are saying she isn’t doing anything. She clearly is. And she’s self aware to say that she’s figuring this stuff in real time while she’s on the clock to fix her worst fuck up in life, like she has to learn how to swim while her boat is sinking.

Edit:Corrected type

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:03 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

I honestly don’t understand where you all are saying she isn’t doing anything.

Other than IC and MC sessions in which she isn’t held accountable and is allowed to stonewall you, what has your wife actually done— proactively— to help you heal and rebuild your marriage?

What ideas has she come up with and implemented on her own for rebuilding your trust?

What insights and details has she provided that weren’t pried out of her?

In what ways does she make an effort every single day to demonstrate her dedication to the marriage and to you as a husband?

Other than throw herself pity parties about how shameful she feels, in what ways has she held herself accountable for her actions?

How do you think she would respond if you flat-out asked her, "You don’t like answering questions so what will you do?"

I would like to recommend a book for your wife called "Healing the Shame That Binds You." It was very helpful to me to get out of those shame spirals. It helps you understand different types of shame, the origin of it, and how to get out of it. I wasn’t keen on some of the exercises it recommends personally, but for me, understanding and identifying it made a huge difference in my overall behavior.

Quick detour here: given the discussion about "betrayed, heal thyself" going on, what exactly do we mean around here about WS taking an active role in healing BS? End of detour.

Well, your wife can help you heal by not harming you more. She can prevent further pain and damage to you. She can do this by being honest and transparent with you. She should stop trickling the truth. She should stop defensiveness and stone walling. She should truly recognize you are the true victim here, not her. This will enable her to have empathy towards you. With empathy, she can prioritize your pain over her shame and embarrassment. This will prevent any future pain she can implict on you. You will have less pain and trauma to work with.

The only person who can heal you is you. So, "betrayed, heal thyself" holds true. But what WS can and should do is not to add more pain and trauma to their BS by continuing their W behavior. Its one thing to be selfish and betrayer when BS is oblivious and ignorant of their partner's betrayal and its other thing to be selfish and betrayer when BS is aware of it.

I hear you saying (again) that I’m wordy.

Not exactly. In some contexts, it's important to describe nuances. In other contexts, it's best to get to the core directly and in no uncertain terms.

Your best bet is to examine the purpose of the words you're saying. Very often, one uses a lot of words because one is afraid to state a want unmistakably. To resolve a conflict, I think it's usually best to put the fear aside. In evaluating whether or not you want to R, I'm convinced you have to put the fear aside and state what you want in definite terms. You did that in the exchange, but I think the message is more likely to get through if you use fewer words.

In some contexts (business, buying something big) it's often best to send signals rather than to be direct. Often indirection is a good tactic - appearing to want A but really wanting B. In negotiations outside the home, it's often useful to send up trial balloons. In M, though, especially after infidelity, explicit communications with as few ulterior motives as possible will lead to the best resolution, IMO.

Some of us use a lot of words because we've adopted at least some of the rules of classical rhetoric. We think we need to lay out clear arguments. We need to provide explicit transitions form idea to idea. That's unnecessary in recovering from infidelity. What's needed then is voicing what one wants and what one is willing to give clearly and succinctly.

JMO, of course.

*****

If your W is a victim of childhood abuse, IMO you'll get better results if she works to change how her abuse affects her behavior before she makes any other changes - that means: before she deals with her A. That puts the A on her back-burner, even though it's a raging fire for you. BTDT. That childhood abuse kept her from being authentic, and authenticity is the surest cure for wayward thinking.

I think it's a rule that R'ing with a survivor of childhood abuse always takes a LOT of patience. Also, your W has to learn to assert herself, which means conflict is pretty frequent. (The upside is that resolving the conflicts can lead to peak experiences.) And you'll have to live through a learning curve as your W learns to assert herself while respecting your wants, so some of the conflict can be very painful.

I've found the rewards to be well worth the effort. I had to keep in my mind that I chose to be in R and that I could choose D at any time for any reason, and I recommend that you keep that in mind, too. IOW, as easy as it is to have sympathy for a victim of childhood abuse, I think it's best to avoid martyring oneself. If you feel that you have to choose between abandoning yourself or abandoning your W, I think abandoning her is probably best for both of you.

I haven’t been following this thread but have picked up on recent events so forgive me if this has been discussed before. It sounds like there have been recent breakthroughs as a result of work by you and Mrs Inkhulk, which is great, but regarding the transference/ countertransference/ transference stuff that’s going on between you, it seems quite complex and given her history might be at the stage where it’s most usefully and safely dealt with through therapy together or facilitated in some way at least. Even though you are quite self aware, that outside eye could be invaluable in seeing salience or dynamics where neither of you can as well as keeping accountability.

@InkHulk:

1. Blaming our bad behavior on deep-seated "issues" is fall-out-of-bed easy. It gives the illusion of taking responsibility and even effort (i.e., trying to overcome said issues) when there hardly is any (as in your instance). The key is her ACTIONS.

2. There is nothing as far as new insights, in your WW's (email? text?) that has not been already noted for at least a few months so far, in this thread and in some of your other threads. The only thing that may be new (to the forums) is that this is in your WW's own words. She surely has had a few months to know this about herself. The question is--how have her *actions* changed? If your last MC session is an indication, hardly for the better, I am sorry to say. (Yes this builds on point #1 above)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:44 PM, Thursday, May 4th]

When she shame spirals, she gets mean and defensive and to that I get extremely upset. That is what is taking me to the end of my patience.

InkHulk - Are you able to give us an example of what this part looks like? I have a hard time imaging how she could get to feeling "betrayed" or "re-traumatized" (though it sounds like you were a little stunned yourself). That said, I don't think in MY LIFE, my husband and i have ever had written exchanges like the one you've included? Do you guys really talk like that to one another normally? Or was that post-a, post-blow-up, because-you-were-on-the-road specific?

You've mention that this pattern of hers (failing to acknowledge fault and instead lashing out) pre-existed the A. How did she explain this (clearly unacceptable) behaviour back then? Was it shame/emotional flashbacks then too? Or is that she was so skilled in deflection/avoidance that she was never forced to account for her behavior previously?

I'm sorry, I feel like this sounds sort of shamey and I don't mean it that way. I know you're having a tough time right now and I'm really not trying to pile on. I am truly just trying to understand. I really struggle with the idea that you haven't been asking questions for literal months? I cannot comprehend the logistics of that.

When I read your WW's words, I felt like she gives herself permission to indulge in paralysis. If she had left the door open and her toddler was out on the lawn lurching toward a busy street, would she stand in the doorway whining about what a loser she is for leaving the door open or would she get off her ass and catch her kid before something bad happened? This should be an "all hands on deck" moment for her, and if saving her marriage means she has to lay down her barriers and be vulnerable enough to return your agency to you, that's what it means.

I just want to co-opt what Chamomile Tea wrote here. I get that she's not going to sort out lifelong issues overnight but I just feel like she's not treating this like the emergency that it is. Where is her sense of urgency?

Chiming in with what Emergent8 asked, where is the sense of urgency (about the interpersonal crisis they created)?

I want to share with you that I spent over 94 hours - an entire year in MC! - after D-Day 1 (not after D-Day 2, forget that) with my SAWH. I recall the day our frustrated counselor abruptly asked my SAWH "Do you really think she isn't getting ready to leave you?" He asked that question because it had finally become clear to him, as it had to me, that my pain was somehow 'par for the course' and that by my investing with him in 'trying to R,' I must have been signing on for his stonewalling and "I don't knows" along with his FOO drama that I truly believe he was unconsciously re-enacting.

So please take care of yourself InkHulk!

InkHulk - Are you able to give us an example of what this part looks like? I have a hard time imaging how she could get to feeling "betrayed" or "re-traumatized" (though it sounds like you were a little stunned yourself).

Stunned and set off. I don’t understand it, Emergent, and it might be the end of this for me.

That said, I don't think in MY LIFE, my husband and i have ever had written exchanges like the one you've included? Do you guys really talk like that to one another normally? Or was that post-a, post-blow-up, because-you-were-on-the-road specific?

We don’t talk face to face like that. I might talk something like that if I was talking as my unfiltered self. To Sisoon’s great dismay, I value more words over less to convey meaning. The end part about the dam was a nod to Retrovaille and its feeling description template, so that is not "me". I was actually pretty damn impressed by my wife’s response. She usually doesn’t talk that extensively, but she obviously can. She’s really intelligent, but she doesn’t believe that.

You've mention that this pattern of hers (failing to acknowledge fault and instead lashing out) pre-existed the A. How did she explain this (clearly unacceptable) behaviour back then? Was it shame/emotional flashbacks then too? Or is that she was so skilled in deflection/avoidance that she was never forced to account for her behavior previously?

Yeah, a little shamey, but your account is high enough with me to absorb it. I’ve hated this part of our relationship. But everytime I would bring it up it would get turned back to me with anger. Shit just went unresolved. I remember early in our marriage she told me she wouldn’t apologize to me for things because she couldn’t guarantee she wouldn’t do it again. Major WTF moment for me (as if I needed to give you all more reason to dislike her). I’ve had religious conviction backing my marriage vows. I had no choice (in my mind) but to keep on and keep trying.

I really struggle with the idea that you haven't been asking questions for literal months? I cannot comprehend the logistics of that.

Logistics are simple when nothing is happening. She says she has answered all my questions in my absence this week, and that she believes I will be very upset by the answers. I guess we’ll see, I fly home tomorrow.

I just want to co-opt what Chamomile Tea wrote here. I get that she's not going to sort out lifelong issues overnight but I just feel like she's not treating this like the emergency that it is. Where is her sense of urgency?

I don’t know. I don’t know what to expect, I don’t know what is good enough. I don’t know.

I would like to recommend a book for your wife called "Healing the Shame That Binds You."

Thanks, WOES, it’s in my Amazon cart. Just need to find something else to get free shipping.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:45 AM, Friday, May 5th]

You must open your mind to a world of depressing possibilities and choose the least depressing among them.

Here is what I have to wrap my head around to make the choice to leave. I have to envision

a life without the woman I have loved for 20 years, only half the time with my kids, damaged or lost relationships with beloved in-laws, a significant QOL reduction

and weigh that that is better than

full time living with my kids, a surrogate father in my FIL, the good life we have built, and my wife in my life.

It’s going to take a fuck load of pain to get me there.

#morethanfivestrikes

Oh, and add to that an existential dread of divorce from my childhood.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:15 AM, Friday, May 5th]

So please take care of yourself InkHulk!

Thanks, Superesse. You too.

It sounds like there have been recent breakthroughs as a result of work by you and Mrs Inkhulk, which is great, but regarding the transference/ countertransference/ transference stuff that’s going on between you, it seems quite complex and given her history might be at the stage where it’s most usefully and safely dealt with through therapy together or facilitated in some way at least.

Thanks for commenting. I appreciate the advice, but what I desperately need at this point is free flow of communication. I’m dying on the vine and the idea of everything just being saved for MC sounds awful to me. I’ve given so much time and so many chances, I think I’m running on fumes.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:16 AM, Friday, May 5th]