SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I recall the day our frustrated counselor abruptly asked my SAWH "Do you really think she isn't getting ready to leave you?" He asked that question because it had finally become clear to him, as it had to me, that my pain was somehow 'par for the course'

Is there some kind of bias against betrayed men out there in the counseling world, or is this just my own experience? That in our pain we look angry and angry men are dangerous and need no help, and in fact the poor little woman who is the object of that anger needs protecting? Because I feel like I’m getting no help from anywhere on this. End self pity rant….

InkHulk, not sure I can give you an answer from my perspective. But believe me, my anger was on clear display from Day 1. I actually think I had more of the typical "male" reaction to such ugly betrayal as his same day leaving our marriage bed and hiring a hooker, then sending me the bill so I could start trying to figure out WTF. Took 8 months after I refi'd my home and bought a farm with him until he confessed he'd been unfaithful months before we signed papers to buy it, despite all my questions during those months. Thus, by D-Day 1, my entire adult life savings was committed to a huge mortgage line of credit we'd signed AND I'd already been talked into starting major demolition of the old home we bought "together" with my equity and his job income. Had I filed, I knew the mortgage could have been called due for "conversion of assets pledged." I hadn't planned even to start on renovation, but he'd immediately urged us to jump into it, maybe to keep me from having an easy way out when the inevitable truth came out? (That's kind of what my lawyer thought.)

Maybe that's partly why I still to this day wake up from dreams I'm lost inside some megalithic building, out of which every door I try seems less and less likely to lead to open air.

Hence my advice to you in the previous thread: take care of YOU.

One other thought occurred to me earlier yesterday about your situation: what was the power dynamic in your M before all this came up? Any chance she was trying to "act out" against being in a "subordinate" position? Not trying to stereotype sex roles; just a line of inquiry to investigate. It ALL sucks....

I have to ask if your WW is really 'conflict-avoidant' too. She infact seems quite adept at getting angry and showing that alright, she just wants YOU to avoid the conflict by letting her have it her way!

Anyways yeah your WW's text reads to me like more stalling and excusing from her, delivered with a spin blaming things on her 'issues'. Please!

As far as how to respond, I think the great wise Dee Snider came up with the *perfect* line in that beautiful song "We're not gonna take it", penned back in the day when music was still grand...

"If that's your best, then your best won't do!"

(Blast that song early and often, it's cathartic!)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:47 AM, Friday, May 5th]

But believe me, my anger was on clear display from Day 1.

I believe you, and it sounds like you’ve got some badass in you, it comes thru in your writing. But there is still a difference in how society perceives a woman angry at a man and a man angry at a woman, even if they are equally valid.

One other thought occurred to me earlier yesterday about your situation: what was the power dynamic in your M before all this came up? Any chance she was trying to "act out" against being in a "subordinate" position? Not trying to stereotype sex roles; just a line of inquiry to investigate. It ALL sucks....

I think she felt something like that. And if we divorce she is going to feel the full insanity of her contempt for me providing every dollar for her while she was a SAHM with no kids and still thinking she was the over burdened partner.

I have to ask if your WW is really 'conflict-avoidant' too. She infact seems quite adept at getting angry and showing that, she just wants YOU to avoid the conflict by letting her have it her way!

I’ve made it a point to pretty much never agree with you ( edit: should have had this from the beginning, no offense intended), but this I have to admit is accurate. She allows her own anger and mine is completely unacceptable to her.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 7:57 PM, Friday, May 5th]

Not to annoy you, InkHulk, but I'm going to repost the questions I had in my last post. You've heard a lot of about what your wife is unwilling or thinks she is unable to do. What does she actually want to do?

Other than IC and MC sessions in which she isn’t held accountable and is allowed to stonewall you, what has your wife actually done— proactively— to help you heal and rebuild your marriage?

What ideas has she come up with and implemented on her own for rebuilding your trust?

What insights and details has she provided that weren’t pried out of her?

In what ways does she make an effort every single day to demonstrate her dedication to the marriage and to you as a husband?

Other than throw herself pity parties about how shameful she feels, in what ways has she held herself accountable for her actions?

How do you think she would respond if you flat-out asked her, "You don’t like answering questions so what will you do?"

Nevermind. I said what I said here several times before already. I do hope OP takes to heart the message but as originally delivered it may have come across too harsh

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:11 PM, Friday, May 5th]

Major WTF moment for me (as if I needed to give you all more reason to dislike her).

I don’t know if you mean "you" in the general sense (as in all of y’all) or in the specific sense (as in me personally), but just in case, I want to be clear that I don’t dislike your wife. Truly, I really don’t. Obviously, I don’t like what she’s done, but I am a happily reconciled BS. The person who I love more than absolutely anyone else in this world is a former WS. I understand, probably more than most, that a person is so much more than the worst thing they’ve ever done. I also understand that for a lot of people, cheating tends to be a symptom of deep-seated insecurities and some incredibly dysfunctional (and harmful!) coping mechanisms. In a lot of cases, I actually have incredible empathy for WSs who have essentially blown up their lives and acted as their own worst enemies and are now in a position where they are trying to solve the incredible mess they have made, and often unequipped with the tools necessary to do so.

I actually have a good friend who I find myself thinking of sometimes when you describe your wife. She is incredibly sweet, fun, thoughtful, selfless, and kind – definitely a people pleaser. At the same time, she is also extremely sensitive to even the slightest whiff of criticism and is prone to reacting rather immaturely to conflict. She often sees herself as a victim and reacts defensively to even perceived slights (we’re talking stuff that would literally would not register with me). Its to the point where I find myself walking on eggshells around her, choosing my words incredibly carefully (or avoiding certain topics entirely), because I know they will send her into a tailspin. In order to avoid conflict, she contorts herself into knots trying to be perfect. As her friend it can be tiresome. I imagine being married to someone like that would be exhausting. InkHulk – I imagine YOU are exhausted.

I also imagine that over the years, as you’ve learned to deal with this trait of hers, you’ve become habituated to it. Perhaps to the point where you don’t recognize how it might look from the outside.

But everytime I would bring it up it would get turned back to me with anger. Shit just went unresolved.

You’ve read about DARVO right? Has she? Does she acknowledge that this is what that is? If so, is that a recent development? You indicated that your mother was emotionally manipulative. How do you see this? Honest question.

but what I desperately need at this point is free flow of communication

I agree. Infidelity aside, part of me is so sad that this has been absent from your marriage to date. This seems like such a major impediment to true intimacy. When I started following your posts you had identified that this was the biggest hurdle in your relationship – you certainly weren’t wrong. I think I initially misjudged the magnitude of the hurdle that you were facing here.

I was actually pretty damn impressed by my wife’s response.

Part of me was too. I obviously don’t know her and I’m not sure where she started with all of this, but I’m guessing she did not have a lot of that insight a few months ago. I believe you when you say she is making progress. Typically though, the disclosure comes BEFORE trying to dig into the work on the whys – often because the WS is not being particularly truthful with themselves prior to disclosure. I do think the disclosure process forces the WS to see what they’ve done from an outside perspective and that can be incredibly humbling for someone who tied themselves in knots justifying their behaviour. Kind of like how you have to understand a subject matter more deeply in order to teach someone else. Does that make sense?

I did notice that her response dodged your questions about the use of the words "deceptive" and the words "I feel betrayed/deceived". Do you suppose that was intentional? I’m also not sure if her empathy is where she thinks it is. Toxic shame will certainly do that.
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She says she has answered all my questions in my absence this week, and that she believes I will be very upset by the answers.

Great! Action over words. Honestly, if you weren’t upset by the answers, it probably wouldn’t bode well for the relationship (either because you’ve finally checked out or because she wasn’t being fulsome in her responses). There is no way past this other than THROUGH it. I want you to get through it so that at some point you can get past it. That is the goal, right? No new information means no fresh hurts. That’s the point that you can actually begin to heal.

Is there some kind of bias against betrayed men out there in the counseling world, or is this just my own experience?

I remember feeling incredibly frustrated in the early days of marital counselling by how my husband was being treated with kid gloves. WHEN I WAS THE ONE THAT WAS HURTING. I also agree with you that it less socially acceptable for a man to express anger with a woman than vice versa.

May I ask what she considers you "lashing out"? You don’t strike me as a particularly angry person. I believe you when you say you were gentle with her disclosures.

My strategy to prevent my husband from shutting down when discussing tough subjects was to say as little as possible and to react as minimally as possible when my husband was in disclosure-mode. No matter how much it hurt, I’d thank him for telling me. Save the reactions for later. If a follow-up was needed, I’d ask in the most non-confrontational way as possible. Granted, we spent the first 3-4 months in almost constant cross-examination mode on this, so I had a lot of time to hone this strategy.

If she would have cried and apologized, I would have held her and it would have been beautiful, instead she left mad. Same thing happened the next night, I asked "too many" questions, even though they logically went together, and immediately she said she "felt deceived". It’s not the answers to the questions that set me off, it’s that victim attitude.

Have you told her this? Maybe put it in writing, if she is more receptive (and less reactive) to that. Tell her about how you want there to be no secrets between the two of you because you want to be able to get to a place of closeness with her. Does she see the upside of disclosure?

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I think it’s helpful to think about the times I hurt myself. How absolutely crazy it made me.

What was this part about?

I might leave space for the possibility that the ‘deceived / betrayed’ comment is not a specific response to what you or the counsellor did.

I remember when my father was dying and asked ‘have I been a good father?’ And I said ‘no’. He said ‘it wasn’t easy’ and then ‘live your own lives’. The sad thing is that if he was a worse father still, I would have lied to him and said he was a good father. I hope he knew I loved him. But his reference to ‘lives’ rather than ‘life’ (singular) ran around my head for years. He was a compartmentalizer of the first order you see. With the benefit of time, I don’t think it was that complex. I think that although he was speaking to me, he was also using that as a means to speak to my brother and sister also. The message was simple enough when viewed from a different perspective. He wasn’t telling me to leave my integrity at the door and make fresh starts when I felt like it, like he did a couple of times too many. He was saying each of us should follow our own paths.

Your wife might have been speaking of being betrayed and deceived in a more complex way, by herself most of all, by her family of origin, even by God. You may have just been caught in the wash.

[This message edited by straightup at 4:28 AM, Saturday, May 6th]

Alright, I’ve ignored BTB too long now, I’ll take a shot at her pointed (but fair) questions.

Other than IC and MC sessions in which she isn’t held accountable and is allowed to stonewall you, what has your wife actually done— proactively— to help you heal and rebuild your marriage?

First off, her being in MC and IC where she is being honest is a big deal and not to be dismissed. Yeah, maybe I wish someone there was tougher with her, but I also doubt, if I’m being honest with myself, that that approach would work for her, at least right now. I can have some trust and respect for trained professionals that they are reading the room better than I am in my crazy highly charged emotional state in this betrayal. Second, she is reading a lot. About complex PTSD, and emotional intelligence. HTHYSHFYA, Not Just Friends. Listens to Podcasts on this stuff, more than I could keep up with. She has identified that she is a massive people pleaser and she needs to learn to assert herself and say what she needs. That part is both true and fucking maddening to me and I know that is going to be so hard. She is going to start asserting herself in immature and un-nuanced ways because she is unpracticed all while she should be caring for me. It’s this dynamic that could shake us apart I believe if I can’t find the patience to allow it. We say here that we both need to heal and then we can try to fix the marriage. She is putting on her own mask, she is trying to heal herself, and it seems like in all honesty that is what she should be doing.

What ideas has she come up with and implemented on her own for rebuilding your trust?

See above for her own rebuilding. Nothing comes to mind here for trust. Her answering questions with gut punching answers has been the most trust building part of this journey so far. Standard stuff like phone access is uncontested.

What insights and details has she provided that weren’t pried out of her?

First off, she confessed, completely out of the blue. That is not to be forgotten. Early on when I believed POSOM was evil incarnate (even more so than in my Cheaters Handbook thread) she could hear in what I was saying that I was vilifying him and she admitted she wanted the sex. It stands as the hardest thing I’ve heard post D-day. She has shared insights about herself that she is only now figuring out.

In what ways does she make an effort every single day to demonstrate her dedication to the marriage and to you as a husband?

She is learning to comfort me well in my tears. She is still showing up daily for our children. She does thoughtful things at times. Not sure what you might be looking for as much here.

Other than throw herself pity parties about how shameful she feels, in what ways has she held herself accountable for her actions?

Not sure how to answer this one, might need some clarification. How does a criminal offered a pardon hold themselves accountable? By not reoffending?

How do you think she would respond if you flat-out asked her, "You don’t like answering questions so what will you do?"

Need some further clarification for this one, not sure what you are asking here. She hates answering questions, but show me a WS who enjoyed that and I’ll find a way to wire you a steak dinner. She’s answered many in the past, she’s written answers to my current batch. There is no substitute for giving these answers. It has happened, it is happening, and it needs to keep happening for as long as I need. And I want to address the slowness with her.

We say here that we both need to heal, and then we can try to fix the marriage. She is putting on her own mask, she is trying to heal herself, and it seems like, in all honesty, that is what she should be doing.

This is important. We sometime tend to forget that WS, through their affair, not only damage their partner but also themself. Post affairs, they both need to work through the damage and recover or rediscover their new self. It's not easy. For this, both BS and WS need to show each other lots of grace and patience. Obviously, this all depends on how remorseful and serious WS is regarding salvaging their marriage. If your wife is serious about this, then you can have a little more patience and offer a little more time and space for her to work through her issues to become the desired candidate of reconciliation is recommended. Many say here that it takes 2 - 5 years to successfully reconcile and escape infidelity. In your case, it's only 10 months, I guess.

I don’t know if you mean "you" in the general sense (as in all of y’all) or in the specific sense (as in me personally)

Definitely y’all

In a lot of cases, I actually have incredible empathy for WSs who have essentially blown up their lives and acted as their own worst enemies and are now in a position where they are trying to solve the incredible mess they have made, and often unequipped with the tools necessary to do so.

I appreciate this trait in you and others. I need to hear at least some of this to really open my heart and mind to advice.

I actually have a good friend who I find myself thinking of sometimes when you describe your wife. She is incredibly sweet, fun, thoughtful, selfless, and kind – definitely a people pleaser. At the same time, she is also extremely sensitive to even the slightest whiff of criticism and is prone to reacting rather immaturely to conflict. She often sees herself as a victim and reacts defensively to even perceived slights (we’re talking stuff that would literally would not register with me). Its to the point where I find myself walking on eggshells around her, choosing my words incredibly carefully (or avoiding certain topics entirely), because I know they will send her into a tailspin. In order to avoid conflict, she contorts herself into knots trying to be perfect. As her friend it can be tiresome. I imagine being married to someone like that would be exhausting. InkHulk – I imagine YOU are exhausted.

Sounds very familiar. And yes, I am pretty exhausted.

I also imagine that over the years, as you’ve learned to deal with this trait of hers, you’ve become habituated to it. Perhaps to the point where you don’t recognize how it might look from the outside.

I would guess that is right on the money. I’m going to again take a moment to say that I absolutely contributed to the dysfunction of our marriage, I’m far from perfect. But this part from her was, and is, maddening. I adjusted to it as best I could, couldn’t find a way to address it. It didn’t rise to the level of worthy of divorce to me, but now it is something that will block re-commitment. She can still be a sensitive person, she always will be, it’s part of her soul, even a part that I love. But she has to manage the worst parts of that.


You’ve read about DARVO right? Has she? Does she acknowledge that this is what that is? If so, is that a recent development?

Oh yes, I am familiar with DARVO. I think she practices a variant of it, and I’m not sure she sees it yet, but I’m not playing it anymore. We had this amazing scene play out a number of years ago that absolutely crystallized this dynamic for me. It went like this:
Child A and Child B are playing together when we notice that both of them are crying. We come over to investigate. First we ask Child A, "why are you crying?" He answers, "because B hit me!" We turn to child B and then wonder, "why then are you crying?" Child B says, "because A is mad at me!" From the mouth of babes. She does something wrong, I get upset as an appropriate response, and she gets upset because I’m upset with her. She doesn’t need the D or A of DARVO, but the RVO is very much in play.

You indicated that your mother was emotionally manipulative. How do you see this? Honest question.

Please clarify the question. How do I see this? I mean, I didn’t like it, but I’m guessing you are looking for something different than that.

I did notice that her response dodged your questions about the use of the words "deceptive" and the words "I feel betrayed/deceived". Do you suppose that was intentional? I’m also not sure if her empathy is where she thinks it is. Toxic shame will certainly do that.

I’m not sure if she was intentionally dodging them, there was a lot there on both sides. I’ll address Straightup’s comments here as well. We’ve set up some fairly strict rules during question asking to try to help prop her up, keep her from getting overwhelmed and flooded. The rules are max 5 questions at a time and no immediate follow up questions. She has identified these somehow as "boundaries" of hers, seemingly confusing their purpose as being allowances from me to help her do what she owes me to do. So during the Wed MC, there were some follow up questions (both my wife’s expressed allowance and then the MC expressly saying they should be allowed in the revelation of her role in starting the affair). So somehow in her mind those rules not being followed led to her saying she felt "betrayed". Similar but slightly different stuff the next day when it was just the two of us, and that led to her feeling "deceived". Hopefully that helps people understand where that came from. I’ve had to contort my brain to understand where she is coming from on that. It seems like a pretty strong victim mentality.

May I ask what she considers you "lashing out"? You don’t strike me as a particularly angry person. I believe you when you say you were gentle with her disclosures.

I can get angry sometimes. Early on she definitely got some serious anger from me. I have had anger come out in some of these fights. But as I’ve said, at this point it isn’t about the discolosures. I didn’t lash out at all from her revealing she emotionally pursued him, I was entirely composed. I even held it together with the "betrayed" comment. The next night with the "deceived" comment I lost it, I left the house and I sent some pretty harsh texts, I’m sure they got worse the more I drank. I’m not an angel, I’m just the one you’ve gotten to know and the side you identify with.

Have you told her this? Maybe put it in writing, if she is more receptive (and less reactive) to that. Tell her about how you want there to be no secrets between the two of you because you want to be able to get to a place of closeness with her. Does she see the upside of disclosure?

This needs direct addressing. I plan to use MC this week for it. I need her to see this.

I think it’s helpful to think about the times I hurt myself. How absolutely crazy it made me.

What was this part about?

There have been a small number of incidents, one in particular, all before D-day, where she was almost certifiably temporarily insane. One night I said that I was tired of not addressing things and I put my foot down (aren’t some of you proud of me) and I said we were going to talk it out that night. So she went and got a dull blade, looked at me with a crazy expression, and scraped her forearm. She didn’t do any damage to herself, but it was super fucked up and if I would have called an ambulance she probably would have been held overnight for observation. I’m sure a good number of you will say "it was all a show!" You weren’t there, I’m pretty damn sure it was not. She has some things going on with her that need to be addressed and make dealing with this affair extra complicated.

See above for her own rebuilding. Nothing comes to mind here for trust. Her answering questions with gut punching answers has been the most trust building part of this journey so far. Standard stuff like phone access is uncontested.

As an example, she could create a complete timeline of the affair, which she would be able to corroborate with emails, phone records, text messages, social media, etc. If she’s missing anything, then she could download software or get a specialist to help her.

Again, this is just an example of something concrete that could be done within a prespecified time frame.

She is learning to comfort me well in my tears. She is still showing up daily for our children. She does thoughtful things at times. Not sure what you might be looking for as much here.

These are all the things she should be doing as a wife and mother. In what ways is she going above and beyond? What changes and sacrifices has she made?

I know you’re asking me for more specifics, but you know the status quo for your marriage; I don’t.

If I were to think of things that would’ve greatly helped my previous marriage survive, my ex quitting his job where he and OW#1 worked would’ve been huge step in the right direction. Defending me against and setting boundaries with his abusive family would’ve been shown he was willing to put me and our marriage first. Since our work schedules were drastically different (I worked days and he worked nights) carving out time during our days off (instead of filling it with his hobbies and interests) would’ve shown he was prioritizing and reengaging with me.

Maybe in your wife’s case, it could be getting job training and going back to work. She clearly had an abundance of free time to conduct an affair while you worked your ass off; maybe she could dedicate that time to helping provide for the family and easing your burden. At the very least, her having a trade and a job would mitigate your alimony obligation if you decided to divorce.

Or she could offer you a generous postnup, which would acknowledge and help minimize the huge risk that you’re taking by choosing to reconcile with her.

Again, you know your wife and relationship better than I do. Furthermore, you wife knows you better than I do. If I, a stranger, can come up with ideas off the top of my head to help you, so can she. Even if they don’t work, at least she’s showing you effort.

Need some further clarification for this one, not sure what you are asking here. She hates answering questions, but show me a WS who enjoyed that and I’ll find a way to wire you a steak dinner. She’s answered many in the past, she’s written answers to my current batch. There is no substitute for giving these answers. It has happened, it is happening, and it needs to keep happening for as long as I need. And I want to address the slowness with her.

The point of this question wasn’t to necessarily give her an alternative to answering the question; as you said, you need what you need and there is no substitute for those answers.

The point of asking "You don’t like doing this so what are you willing to do?" was to prompt her to think proactively about what more she could be doing and is willing to do RIGHT NOW to save your marriage.

You already know that she put time and energy into cultivating a relationship with OM and getting him to emotionally engage with her. Surely she can muster some creativity when it comes to your relationship, if she values it.

And lastly… I know it takes time for WWs to "get it." They wouldn’t be waywards otherwise. But if you wait for your turn to get your needs met while she deals with a lifetime of psychological issues and emotional trauma, you’ll be waiting forever. I think we already agree on that last point, at least.

As an example, she could create a complete timeline of the affair, which she would be able to corroborate with emails, phone records, text messages, social media, etc. If she’s missing anything, then she could download software or get a specialist to help her.

I believe I understand the timeline of the affair, unless she’s lied or hid anything. Vast majority of the messaging was with end to end encrypted FB Messenger, and everything I’ve read says they can’t be recovered. I don’t want to see them now anyway.

These are all the things she should be doing as a wife and mother. In what ways is she going above and beyond? What changes and sacrifices has she made?

Maybe I don’t need her to be Wonder Woman. Just a good loving wife and mother would be amazing right now.

If I were to think of things that would’ve greatly helped my previous marriage survive, my ex quitting his job where he and OW#1 worked would’ve been huge step in the right direction. Defending me against and setting boundaries with his abusive family would’ve been shown he was willing to put me and our marriage first. Since our work schedules were drastically different (I worked days and he worked nights) carving out time during our days off (instead of filling it with his hobbies and interests) would’ve shown he was prioritizing and reengaging with me.

She has spent a lot of time with me, especially when I’m down. She at least speaks that she sees that she has not sided with me enough in things with her family and wants to correct that. It’s not been strongly tested, but the sentiment is there at least. She dropped POSOM like a hot potato on D-day, quite certain complete no contact since. She has started to open up sexually. Yes, I know, she might be manipulating me. But that is one of the thing I’ve really asked for and if that can help keep us afloat, well that is the lifeboat that I want to be in.

Maybe in your wife’s case, it could be getting job training and going back to work. She clearly had an abundance of free time to conduct an affair while you worked your ass off; maybe she could dedicate that time to helping provide for the family and easing your burden. At the very least, her having a trade and a job would mitigate your alimony obligation if you decided to divorce.

She went to work last Fall.

Or she could offer you a generous postnup, which would acknowledge and help minimize the huge risk that you’re taking by choosing to reconcile with her.

This hasn’t come up, I haven’t brought it up and I doubt it’s crossed her mind. Maybe it will come up some day, I don’t know.

Again, you know your wife and relationship better than I do. Furthermore, you wife knows you better than I do. If I, a stranger, can come up with ideas off the top of my head to help you, so can she. Even if they don’t work, at least she’s showing you effort.

I do know her best, and if you told me a year ago that she would be trying to figure her shit out this much I would have called you a damned liar. She’s trying. She has an unusually long race to run, I think.

You already know that she put time and energy into cultivating a relationship with OM and getting him to emotionally engage with her. Surely she can muster some creativity when it comes to your relationship, if she values it.

It’s pretty apples and oranges, comparing starting an A to trying to salvage the M. The first is breezy and thrilling and magical. The second is gritty and excruciating and heavy. She is trying, maybe just take my word for that. She is imperfect, but she is trying.

And lastly… I know it takes time for WWs to "get it." They wouldn’t be waywards otherwise. But if you wait for your turn to get your needs met while she deals with a lifetime of psychological issues and emotional trauma, you’ll be waiting forever. I think we already agree on that last point, at least.

If I wasn’t demanding my needs here, I wouldn’t be screaming into the internet. I am figuring out in real time what my minimum needs are, and I’m figuring it out because not getting them met now feels like a root canal without Novocain. I do agree with you. I’m also allowing for her to find space to heal and survive as well. It’s a tricky balance and it might back fire on me. But this is what I’m choosing to try.

Apples and oranges might be different species but they are both fruit.

Your wife knows how to get what she wants from men. She knows how to work their emotions and connect with them.

Sure, starting an affair is more fun than repairing a marriage after infidelity. But repairing a marriage ought to be more important and, when all is said and done, more enduring and fulfilling than bedding a married douchebag.

If her goal is to save her marriage, then she needs to see beyond how hard things are right now. If she can’t or won’t, then you won’t see any progress.

If her goal is to save her marriage, then she needs to see beyond how hard things are right now. If she can’t or won’t, then you won’t see any progress.

On this we fully agree.

You know @InkHulk, as a recovering Mr Nice Guy himself (yes, really! ) there is one pattern about your thoughts and behavior that I find really stands out (because I did something like this a lot too):

You are OK with your WW's (not-so-impressive IMO) efforts, until suddenly you are not.

As in, when you come on here at least, you seem to be awfully accepting of the glacial pace your WW is taking in opening up to you and in becoming a better wife. The patience of Job! Along those notes, you seem to be ascribing character traits to your WW that support the narrative that your WW is really trying, she has such major FOO issues to overcome. Meanwhile however, YOUR needs seems to be suppressed unsustainably, and so of course you reach a breaking point with your patience. An example is right after the last awful counseling session you and your WW had.

I'm going to use understatement here and say that this pattern is NOT serving you. Of course you reach a breaking point! Maybe on some level EVEN YOU believe that you are being too tolerant and understanding of your WW's slow pace and are getting walked all over there in your marriage. Even in one of your most recent posts prior to this you both defend your WW's efforts, AND say how your own needs are not being met. In the very same post!

And yeah--your WW's conflict avoidance up to this point seems to boil down to her really wanting YOU to cave on everything to avoid the conflict. She may want everyone else to like her, but she is not this fragile shrinking violet she likes to play herself to be, one that gets her a pass with her IC and up to this point, with you. You have got to be seeing this for yourself on some level, no?

Anyways yes I think you are still being too easy on your WW. I think whatever you want, a more consistent harder line on your WW will serve you well. (understatement of the week and even *this* last statement may be understatement of the week!)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:40 PM, Monday, May 8th]

InkHulk,

I have not responded to your threads much lately but have been following them closely. There is a theme that goes through much of your threads but jumped out to me on this last page (page 18).

If I wasn’t demanding my needs here, I wouldn’t be screaming into the internet. I am figuring out in real time what my minimum needs are, and I’m figuring it out because not getting them met now feels like a root canal without Novocain. I do agree with you. I’m also allowing for her to find space to heal and survive as well. It’s a tricky balance and it might back fire on me. But this is what I’m choosing to try.

This sums it up pretty nicely. Your minimum needs are getting push back after years of marriage and her having an affair. As others have said you know your wife better than anyone. To me this sounds like your wife making it as painful as possible for you so you just acquiesce. Like a young teenager trying to constantly push boundaries, dance right up to the edge and then walk it back enough to let things settle down. But don't get too comfortable because that will on tomorrow's dance card too. According to you this is just the minimum needs. Please stop short-changing yourself.

It’s pretty apples and oranges, comparing starting an A to trying to salvage the M. The first is breezy and thrilling and magical. The second is gritty and excruciating and heavy.

This is starting from a position of how easy *and fun* it was for your WW to start an affair and how hard it is going to be to fix it. <gulp>

This sums it up pretty nicely. Your minimum needs are getting push back after years of marriage and her having an affair.

Meanwhile however, YOUR needs seems to be suppressed unsustainably, and so of course you reach a breaking point with your patience.

I am sitting here on my couch with a copy of the book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents", just a couple chapters in, but pretty fascinated. My parents definitely fall into this category, and I’m seeing in this book ways that affected me. Big one is not knowing or valuing my own needs. True story, guys, I honestly have a hard time naming them. When I say that I’m figuring them out in real time like an unmediated root canal, I mean it. When I was in high school, I couldn’t figure out why my best friend even like me, and I even asked him once. I’m intelligent, athletic (or was 30 pounds ago), tall, have money and success, articulate and kind, and I still wonder why people like me.
It is also probably true that the idea of disrupting so many lives (mine, hers, kids, close family and friends) in the name of pursuing what I want/need feels very foreign to me.

As I read this books description of emotional immaturity, my wife checks box after box. She just didn’t mature in that way. And I doubt I’d get an A+ myself.

Lastly, you guys see some of my most unvarnished thoughts and emotions going thru this shitty adventure. I don’t think I’m going to apologize for being somewhat erratic. I kind of expect you to understand, and you always have the option of changing the channel. This is hard, we’re stumbling thru it. I do still appreciate you all.

I don’t think I’m going to apologize for being somewhat erratic.

I don’t think you should apologize.

When I first got here, the term "emotional roller coaster" was utilized quite a bit, and it means a lot of different things to different people (ah, perspective) — but for me, it gave me permission to explore the depths of my pain. I could vent in anger one day, and be happy about progress in the M the next. And then vent again a few days later when the whole damn thing took three steps back.

Most people are much farther along in their healing — so I’m not sure there is as much patience from some members who want you healed and happy today.

You will find your very own path through, regardless of the outcome.

Recovery and finding what it is that will eventually give you some peace takes an inordinate amount of time, as it should when family is involved and you’re trying to find the best way through for you and everyone you care about.