SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Been a while since posting about my situation. Not a while since writing, considering posting, and deciding not to, but actually hitting submit hasnt been doable.

Im embarrassed, even in an anonymous format. I feel judged here sometimes. Even so, I know its a me thing. Im a handful. And I know it.

First thing to say is that finding support isnt working out. Im not doing a great job of processing my feelings by myself, however.

The Infidelity specialist whom we were seeing this summer was pushing me to accept Ww’s representations of the whole story as complete so we could start working her process on healing. We had just agreed to do this when I came to know about another AP outside of the understood period of infidelity, as well as suspicious things that might indicate things continued years later with the two prior primary APs. When I brought that up, She made recommendations to go to ICs for each of us and essentially fired us.

A break from therapy ensued. I began a soft 180, began to work out, clean up my diet, and focus inwardly. I made decisions to disengage and claim space if I needed it, stop digging for truth, and to do things I wanted to do. This is where she picked fights a lot over control of my behaviors. Briefly, these fights started about bedtimes and insomnia, alcohol and nicotine use, and hierarchy of the cat vs myself.

These fights would become about how I handled her affairs, what I had done to our relationship, how long this has been a thing and how sick of it all she is, and what it all says about my masculinity. Fights would end with me leaving the house to get space. she would renounce the things she said, apologize, then do it again in the next occasion. It was like I was dealing with two separate people.
It was awful, abusive, and I started to examine the exit door.

She sensed this and decided she was the problem, claiming revelation. She started a DBT class and found a therapist whom she liked, who featured as a guest several times in a popular infidelity recovery podcast. reached out and scheduled.

This Therapist saw each of us individually twice, and then would meet us together for a couples session.

We were both pronounced deeply codependent after our first two sessions, which we knew. I was given some writing assignments and Ww was asked to go to CODA.

At our first joint session, we were informed that all therapeutic discussions going forward would be about current ongoing problems exclusively, and that the infidelity wouldnt qualify because it had been discussed to death and the dead horse was "starting to stink".

We were lead to share how we had been harmed by family and the parallel ways we were harming each other, apologize, and make resolutions to give amends.

WW was lead to apologize for using me, abusing me, lying and cheating. Her amends are to go forward not doing those things.

I was lead to apologize for criticizing her, threatening to leave, and making her live under constant interrogation. My amends are to stop litigating the past, not use criticizing language, and to not use the fear of divorce as leverage.

This put me in a stifled place. I had just learned that Ww’s mom had encouraged her to go and hang out with J during times when I was stuck at work behind my back, and used a nail salon appointment late in the day with her daughter to construct an alibi for why I might arrive home before Ww, when she was out on a boat with 2 APs. A major lie about this incident also became uncovered. She likely didnt know about the cheating, but was certainly encouraging the lying, sneaking, secret social life, and violating my boundaries.
She had taken a somewhat adversarial view of me for the past two years since this all came out, and has blamed me for my inability to heal. Let it go or leave, so Ww has time left to have kids with someone else.

Felt like I was drowning, but since this amounted to past litigation and criticism, I was pinned.

The therapist didnt want to hear it. If It didnt happen in the last two years, or did and was related to the past, it was off the table.

He did want me to identify what lacked in the relationship; respect. He identified that as a need, and the desire to process the betrayal as a misguided want that would do more damage. He advised me to grow some balls, stop being a child and do more work on my codependency.

I think thats valid, but it lands a bit like going to an orthopedic with a dislocated shoulder and having them only wanting to vest in treating scoliosis. Yeah, I have a curved spine but this dislocation is kind of pressing. Can we look at why I came here? Nope, wear this back brace.

Ww had her next session with him, and It was about parental enmeshment. Her parents had just started a pressure campaign to get her to change jobs to one at her fathers company of employment. Ww likes her current job, and probably makes more than she would, and has a very short commute. It was strange. They were going into the restaurant Ww works at, discussing it every day, telling her what to do to improve her odds of getting the job and what questions would be in the interview and how she must answer them. They did this every day for about a month.
Therapist encouraged her to set boundaries.

Next session was a joint one. All discussion and focus at home was on her parents and the job pressure. So that was the topic of this session as well. I expressed I was frustrated that our relationship problems have been totally sidelined by this, that she was so avoidant with me but so invested in her parents peculiar life running efforts. He reiterated boundary formation. Didnt schedule a next appointment because of thanksgiving, and neither side has reached out to reengage and continue therapy.

I figure we wont see him again.

Ww declined the interview and her father has pulled back from her, emotionally. What can ya do?

The therapist was right about me needing to increase my self reliance.
Im stable, but not good. Im going to keep focusing on my physical health for the time being. I feel pretty lost and abandoned, socially isolated. The bitterness is a little oppressive. Time is helping. No satisfaction will come from continuing how I was. What is healing anyway?

Ww has at least been open to talking to me, hasnt been raging out, very loving and kind since I was supportive while her parents were trying to control her life about her career direction. Still doing her DBT course, and shes seeing the course teacher for IC.

I wonder why I decided to share this? Its my deal to figure out. Its my responsibility. Hmm.

I was actually thinking about you the other day and decided to check your account activity. I saw you logged in yesterday or the day before, and hoped you would post an update. I'm glad that you did!

If I were to summarize your post, it seems that the advice that you got from both therapists was pretty much the same things that we on SI were saying:

-Your wife isn't going to tell you more than what you already know about the affair and what you do is enough to make an informed decision about whether to remain married or divorce. You've chosen to remain married to her and therefore there's no point in threatening her with a divorce you don't intend to follow through on or starting arguments about the affair that won't lead to a resolution.
-You have a deeply unhealthy and co-dependent relationship with one another. Fear (of the unknown, of self-reliance, of loneliness) is the glue that keeps you together.
-You've done all the work that you both can do on your marriage. At this point, you would both be better served if you focus on your own deep-seeded emotional issues and become self-sufficient as individuals, rather than relying on each other to fill in your gaps.

Is that a fair assessment?

As for going forward, I think myself and others have told you that it's really important that you make some real-world friends. Exercise seems to be your primary outlet at the moment, so perhaps you can meet people at the gym or join a cycling club, recreational sports team, or do Crossfit. If there are any other hobbies you're interesting, look into local meetups, if possible.

Perhaps you could also try volunteering at homeless shelters, soup kitchens, or the church. Sometimes helping people who are in need will help you get out of your own head and take the focus of your own problems.

What is healing anyway?

I think that's a great question. How would define being "healed"? I don't mean what you think is realistically possible based on your current circumstances, but how you imagine being healed if you could make a wish and have it come true.

Bluerthanblue,

Yeah, fair assessment.

Im trying. Thanks for all the times youve tried to talk some sense into me. Cant tell you how many times you told me something that my stomach couldn't handle…. But it was all totally on the nose.

You really have a talent for being right about things. Seeing down the road.

Its all so existentially depressing. But I have to work with what I can actually change from here on. And thats just me.

At this point, If I dont get better, I did it to myself.

What is healing anyway?

This line also jumped out at me. It’s not being in constant pain and confusion. It’s having the capacity to feel joy in life again. Man, please don’t give up on that.

Regarding sorting the good and not so good about this place: it’s ok to respectfully tell people to shove it sometimes. Nobody is omniscient, and also people tend to forget to be patient with the paralysis that can come from the trauma.

I hope you can find the good outweighs the bad, I certainly did. I’m glad to hear from you.

To the update, I have to say that it sounds highly problematic that 1) new lies are coming out and 2) a celebrity MC has now pushed you to apologize for caring about that. I don’t know how you come back from that. You clearly care deeply about truth and honesty and you aren’t getting a verifiable or even plausible story, and now your wife will feel fully justified in never giving it to you.

You said you started looking at the exit. How did that feel?

I agree with Bluer. Getting out of co-d is difficult, and I'm all for getting good help, but it's you who needs help, not your M.

You heal you. It's work you do, irrespective of what your W does. If she starts healing, you can heal your M together, if you both want to. But if you heal you, you free yourself whatever your W does.

I think healing is another way of saying 'become authentic'. It's taking responsibility for yourself. Owning your strengths and weaknesses, wants and don't wants. Loving yourself as you are, even with your weaknesses. Making your choices and living with the consequences and staying on top of what you like about your life and what you want to change in your life. Asking for what you want. Staying out of Drama Triangles (searchable term).

Im not doing a great job of processing my feelings by myself....

I think the best conclusion you can draw from that is: your next step is to find a good IC.

There's a difference between judgement and observation. I think it's common for people who are down on themselves to confuse the two. My experience was that I felt criticized by my therapist through several bouts of therapy. When I confronted that, each therapist said they were providing feedback, not criticizing. When I finally got that I was OK (A Transactional Analysis term meaning roughly, loving, lovable, and capable, IMO), I realized they were right.

IMO, one's self-talk can range from worst enemy to best ally imaginable. It's really easy to grow up developing self-talk that attacks oneself. Many of us were taught no to coddle ourselves. Many of us learn that we have to stifle ourselves and manipulate others into loving actions.

You've done a lot of work effectively and successfully. 'Co-d' is an observation. 'Work with a good IC' is not about some defect in you.

And even if they are criticisms, if they help you get to where you want to be ... well, who cares how you get there?

Ink,

Looking at getting out didnt feel like it would be an answer. I didnt see better things on the other side of that. Being cheated on was a constant in my life. And the pain doesnt just stop when the proximity ends. I knew that. I never wanted anything less than her in my life.

Sure, I could heal afterwards, build something else, do something else.

But I didnt want to. I want her. I want to be able to see past what happened and find a place to be secure in what is. Im sure of that.

People arent good or bad…. They are just…

Self important animals. Full of needs and wants and justifications to meet those ends. We fool ourselves otherwise, for sure, but its clear.

I get that. I never hated her for being what everyone essentially is, myself no exception. So the love never died. It changed, it became less special, I ate the biggest lunch of disappointment ever served.

Now I look at my life. Whats the point of life?

Its to have a great experience. It would be good if that enjoyment was derived from contributing positively to the lives of others, but primarily have to take oxygen for ourselves first.

Cant keep chasing others approval and happiness, forsaking our own.

And thats what I did. And then I tried to control the back end to make myself complete.

Boom. Missed the point of life, for the plank in my eye.

Fixing that is my real answer.

Cared about the wrong shit. Cant beat myself up too badly, everyone misses the point.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 4:25 PM, Thursday, December 11th]

And the pain doesnt just stop when the proximity ends.

My personal opinion is that you have this wrong. Yes, it’s true in the sense that if you chose divorce that the pain would not lift completely and immediately. But once you start looking at a slightly longer time scale, I think this isn’t true. My strongly held belief is that staying in close proximity with your betrayer keeps the source of the pain in place. Even in the best of cases where five years out things end up well, the betrayed endures an extra pain to try to R. It’s a gamble we take on to try to get to what we see as the best possible outcome. And in cases where the wayward is not coming around but instead continuing to abuse (like your descriptions of how she lashes out at you), it’s like an anchor tied to your ankle, keeping you at the bottom of ocean.

I’m not telling you what to do. But I think you are miscalculating the options you have in front of you. Many many here do in fact describe a sense of relief and healing that comes with distance from their betrayer. Her proximity is causing you pain that you could choose to move away from.

And to your abiding love for her that makes you believe it’s worth the pain, all I can say is that I felt the same way while I was in it, and now I look at my exwife with a sense of "I never knew you". It is terrifying, makes you question things you really don’t want to. But for me it was the path to authenticity, truth, reality that I needed to stay sane. I sense that same need in you.

First wife and I didn't get along - both unhappy - she pulled the plug first - as a gambit to get me to change. Didn't work.

FF 8 years more or less, met current #2. Happy now. Really wasn't unhappy while single - other than loneliness.

Recommend you pursue same steps in this path.

Life to short to live in perpetual unhappiness.

I could not imagine being without my spouse. But it ends up, after a year of sadness, I LOVE my life. I love that I can rely on me. That I am as strong as I need to be. That I am much less lonely than society would have you believe. That friendships are so much richer.

It’s a risk to D. But I now know who I am and I like me. I’ve done a lot of IC and luckily found good therapists for #2 and #3 (first one was so-so but even I could see that she could not get me to where I needed to go).

Whatever you decide, bet on you. Invest in YOU. Get IC for you (trauma specialist). Do activities that help you build friendships. Make your happiness a priority. You get one precious life.. make the most of it.

I've been wondering about you for a while now as well. I'm glad to hear from you, but it's hard to hear that this process keeps limping along.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but I recall your wife starting an account here and participating for a bit. This new post makes me have questions.

So you've said that you "came to know about another AP outside of the understood period of infidelity, as well as suspicious things that might indicate things continued years later with the two prior primary APs." Would you be willing to share what happened? And did your wife do all of this before you guys started trying to work on things, or was it after? Timing matters.

Even in the best of cases where five years out things end up well, the betrayed endures an extra pain to try to R. It’s a gamble we take on to try to get to what we see as the best possible outcome.

I think it's more that some BSes are best served by R; others by D. I agree to the pain of being with one's betrayer every day, but my reco is: don't discount the joy of being with a WS one loves and who is doing the necessary work.

Tradeoffs. Always tradeoffs.

And in cases where the wayward is not coming around but instead continuing to abuse (like your descriptions of how she lashes out at you), it’s like an anchor tied to your ankle, keeping you at the bottom of ocean.

I do not have experience with this, but I imagine that is extremely painful, more painful, perhaps, than people realize. Also, in R, there's a light at the end of the tunnel - a real life together that serves both partners, and end to the pain of being betrayed. With a WS who is not doing the work, my guess is that the BS is dooming themself to a life of continued betrayal of the (sometimes implied) promise by the WS to change from cheater to good partner.

But that's just what I imagine. I didn't have to deal with that. If I did, I might have chosen to stay and bear the ongoing pain - I don't think I would, but I can't rule it out.

I urge you to think very carefully before choosing that kind of life - and to remember, if you continue on the path you seem to have planned, you can change your mind at any point, for any reason.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:31 PM, Friday, December 12th]

I think it's more that some BSes are best served by R; others by D. I agree to the pain of being with one's betrayer every day, but my reco is: don't discount the joy of being with a WS one loves and who is doing the necessary work.

I didn’t personally get to feel the joy of being with a WS who was doing the necessary work. I’m genuinely happy for you that you did. Your descriptions of how your wife responded set the bar for me for what is possible.

I do not have experience with this, but I imagine that is extremely painful, more painful, perhaps, than people realize.

Don’t worry, I got you on this one

It is absurdly painful. I think the worst possible outcome from infidelity is to get trapped in this pain indefinitely. I fear for OP that he may choose this self imposed hades. His wife has had plenty of time to come around (though no time was ever owed to her). She is defensive, evasive, using counselors to shield her. Everytime one of these manifest, it twists the knife. And I hear nothing that makes me think there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

With all due respect to Nietzsche, whether or not good and evil exist, some people are bigger assholes than others and your wife is one hell of an asshole.

Wow, this is not how I see you at all: "Boom. Missed the point of life, for the plank in my eye.

Fixing that is my real answer."

You are WAY too hard on yourself. I have been reading your thread very closely. I look up to you. You are the type of person who persevered in all types of scenarios even when the odds were stacked against you. Maybe celebrate your wins more? You are an awesome person, and a success story for those of us who have been bullied at home and at school.

Ink and sisoon,

Im aware of the downsides of both possible outcomes. Im a distinguished……experiencer…. Of the outcomes.

I began being Co-d as a child. My social relationships tend to follow a decade or multiple years long cycle, with multiple stages, followed by a reset to a new cycle. It goes like this;

1. Exodus stage. Abusive relationships or social situations which are out of my power to change become addressed by withdrawal, no contact, or sheer evasion. Boundary work usually leads to relationship loss.

2. Isolation stage. I embrace self reliance and solitude. I take care of myself but experience crushing bitterness, fear, and loneliness. I can live this way, but the downsides overwhelm the resolve to stay isolated. Limited social opportunities and being a wet blanket make situational mobility poor.

3. Reliance stage. Someone has become close to me. Important to me. Its generally a small close group, or a single individual. These people are generally believed at this time to be "different" from what came before. Dependence on symbiosis occurs.

4. Abuse stage. Red flags get ignored as the relationship becomes inequitable. Betrayals, double standards, mistreatment start in secret. Deception or gaslighting enforces status quo. Bullying always shows up somewhere. Attitude towards me approaches ownership. Entitlement. My self respect totally craters as I attempt to resolve and save the relationship(s). Low social value outside of these few relationships reinforces dependence. But self preservation and reassumption of self respect ultimately ends this stage.

5. Next exodus stage.

Thats basically what Ive been doing since childhood. Ive no interest in perpetuating it. It sucks.

For the time being, resolving my tendency to be in it is my focus.

Icedover84,

Im not sure theres any value to be had in discussing the findings. I suppose I can.

The undisclosed AP (D) was a dishwasher in 2015 whose number was among those in Ww’s phone in a hidden format. Story was that he was "huggy" and that the executive chef made a comment that "in his country people are killed over this".

Ww said that she gave him a ride home an hour away once due to him being carless, but that nothing happened. Said he wasnt attractive to her, had an insulin pump, and was an object of pity. I asked what his last name was and she didnt know.

Eventually I came to know his last name and got pictures of him from then.He was actually a tattooed, tanktop doucheloaf of exactly the make you wouldnt want your girl giving a ride to, somewhat different from her portrayal. So I asked more questions and she admitted to participating in flirtatious texting, but no physical cheating. Alright, I suppose.

Things that suggested scope and length with J and P exceeded 2014 are more nebulous. She continued working in proximity to both until they were no longer present at her job. J left the job in 2016 to become a teacher. P remained a member until he was divorced, later than 2016 but year unknown.

You will recall I was transfixed on the condoms we had at home, eventually finding she was carrying them around?Right sport, wrong league.

I looked but could never find my records of the purchase of those condoms. I assumed I purchased them since I was the one who wanted to use them. Frankly, we have lost arousal and not had sex over me insisting on condom use and Ww not wanting me to more times than we actually used them. Most sex between us is unprotected, and she always votes against wrapping it.

She purchased em all. I had two boxes that were in my dresser. In 2015 she purchased 3 boxes. Never saw the third. Then she purchased a box or two every year perfectly in alignment with winter and summer break till 2020, 9 bulk boxes in total.

At home, I only saw the two purchased in 2015 and another two to replace those in 2020 when the 2015 ones expired. Its possible I am wrong, but I think not.

J entered a serious relationship in 2020, right around the time Ww stopped buying rubbers, and left Georgia in 2023 to teach in Colorado with his wife or whatever she is. In 2024, his number was still hidden in her phone, and was the only number like that that wasnt blocked from calling. So.

I did penetrate one of Ww’s snapchat accounts from 2021, at one point. Nothing conclusive existed, but her snap list included both of my married brothers, and her cousins ex husband whom her cousin divorced years before after she caught him cheating on her. I really did not like that but she claims nothing foul and I wouldnt know otherwise. Both of my brothers are "read in" on my situation. They claim to not have ever had Snapchat accounts. I think though, thats just embarrassment and theres nothing to it but my fearful trauma brain.

Im reticent to write all that out as I dont particularly want to go back to investigating or living in the past. I do recognize the need to talk about it though, so am torn. Therapists all advised me to stay away from it. I cant know whats best, but I know it never had anything to do with me, and Im where I should focus my energy. So thats my inclination.

This0is0fine,

She isnt an asshole, brother.

She is a sensitive, kindhearted, dynamic child of god. The affairs and the deception are objects of great shame to her. She only wants to be happy and feel complete. She loves helping others, and is beloved by anyone who knows her.

She wakes up every day, full of aspirations and hope. She works so hard. She struggles to love herself. Its easier for her to love animals, run restaurants, excercise, and focus on the places where she didnt fail.

She cant live with herself and face it. Ive tried to force her. She wants to run away from the past. I keep reminding her.

Thats me, trying to make her choices for her. Thats me being wrong.

I cant save her or us, but I can save me and accept the dynamic truth of who she is. Who I am.

If I can do that and stay, I will.

Maybe that will be where I find something like healing. Maybe it will just keep delaying my healing. Healing will happen either way, eventually.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 3:27 PM, Saturday, December 13th]

You see a pattern in your life. First off, I’m really sorry that you’ve had to endure all that. You want to stop the cycle, that makes sense. But there are options on where you choose to stop it. You are choosing to stay in a situation that is dangerous to your spirit, and it sounds like it’s out of stubbornness against life. Just slamming on the brakes and staying with an unremorseful serial cheater doesn’t strike me as being in your best interests. Just my opinion.

You said you are struggling to process your emotions. What emotions are not resolving? What have you tried so far to make progress in it?

Well, theres anger and sadness that comes and goes, but the root is definitely shame.

Shame and powerlessness.

A sensation of being unlikeable, of coming by trauma honestly for the sheer lack of respect worthy traits in my existential structure.

People do things, bias towards that sensation gets confirmed, and I internalize it again.

A voice that says my life is fucked up because Im a malformed persimmon. Rightly discarded.

I know better than this, I tell myself its horseshit, but the back legs dont believe it.

I know it comes from being neglected and harshly criticized by family, and being held to a standard of usefulness and behavior that I was also taught to not expect. I was raised to give it all and expect nothing, and to smile and say thank you.

So, Im trying kinder internal language, Increasing my understanding of where it comes from, attempting to adopt behaviors I would personally respect and leaning into self acceptance. Also shifting my expectation of validation to internal sources. Oh, and trying to not be a human vending machine. Saying no and trying to release the guilt, pick myself, say what I want, need. Etc.

Then, Im trying to release the expectation that people adjust their behaviors to my expectations, and the attempts to force it. Ive got work to do here in enforcing my boundaries. Im not any good at that. I fold alot.

I also feel a fair bit of bitterness. Lifes unjust. Fair doesnt math. Im trying to be more fair. Thats all I can do about that. The world will be its own way and I have my own problems.

I think its a fair bit of work Ive done on this, but the feelings dont release, the childhood molding is pretty firm.

I think something could be missing, or maybe I just need time and practice. Maybe I just need more wins under my belt with these things.

And the more I work on these things, the more I see a mirror of my wife and my traits in each other. I think its why we chose each other.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 6:44 PM, Saturday, December 13th]