SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey friends -

Thanks for the support and input.

G5 is away for work for a few days, so I have a break during the week, currently. I honestly can’t decide if that makes it better or worse because there is that delay in being able to resolve things. OTOH, it’s giving me time to reflect and be thoughtful about how I’m going to bring up certain topics that I’m feeling really angry or otherwise emotional about in a constructive manner.

This thread is definitely the anti-FB reel of our relationship, meaning I’m here bitching about all the bad and not sharing the good. There is actually a lot of good about our relationship and G5, but these particular topics (family relationships/forgoceness) and the recent "breakup" have really done some damage that needs to be addressed by a bigger conversation than a few minutes before he leaves for work saying he’s sorry and I’m the one for him.

I do try to be cognizant of the sunk cost fallacy. G5 has a degree in finance, so I’ve heard about it! lol I think he is also very aware and invested in not staying together at all costs if it isn’t working.

IDK.

I have some issues to bring up, clearly.

I’ll keep you posted. I really appreciate everyone’s honest feedback. I want to be accountable for things I need to improve upon as well.
Breathing deeply.

I will be ok no matter what.

Non- ipdate -

Yesterday we were talking on the phone and somehow it came up that I needed to talk to him about some things. I told him I’ve been struggling since our argument, but that I really don’t want to talk about over the phone because important conversations should be face to face. His first comment was,"Why, so you can tell me to leave?".

I’m really starting to feel like he’s projecting his own wishes on me, but he can’t bring himself to do it. Idk.

Anyway I said no, I’m not planning to ask him to leave. Things were weird between us today. He will be home tomorrow.

I decided I’m going to open the conversation by telling him how depressed I’ve been since that day and that I’m nearing the point of needing to do something about it (therapy, meds…SOMETHING).

I don’t know if tomorrow will be the time to bring up any of the items that have been bothering me. I feel like my thoughts have been all over the place.

Anyway - please send good vibes my way.

Hope everyone has a good weekend!

Just seeing this. He certainly didn't react with anything like empathy when you tried to share your feelings, did he. He was more about defending himself from anything he doesn't want to hear.

That’s a really good point, Superesse…

Finally caught up on the latest! How's your weekend going, nekorb?

Hope you're able to get some answers. Even if they aren't the ones you want to hear. Limbo is hard. ((nekorb))

Hey everyone!

Well, it was a rough start but is improving.

Cliff notes version:
1. I told him how I was feeling depressed, etc., which led to him feeling guilty, angry, "Well what about the time you..", and so on.
2. There was a lot of tension and crying (me - that’s just how I am!)
3. He ultimately agreed to go to couples counseling (I did not persuade or beg, just said I thought we needed it)
4. In the spirit of compromise I suggested we do our own research and give it a shot on our own first - he agreed (he is not a "believer" in counseling)
5. He was first to send an article on conflict resolution/steps to take, etc.
6. We both have apologized for invalidating feelings
7. Before he left for work today (he will be gone a few days) he came to me and said "Let’s end things on a good note" and proceeded to cite something I do for him that he finds so extremely thoughtful and nice and expressed that he really appreciates it. States that he wants to be here, he does not want to leave, values me, and so on.
8. I also provided positive feedback about something he does for me

I think it went as well as could be expected. I don’t think anyone (myself included) enjoys hearing criticism or things they need to improve about themselves, and we both need to work on delivery.

Overall, positive interaction.

Growth HURTS!!

You're right on so many levels. Hang in there, nekorb. We got your back.

Just read this thread and the original post is WILD to me. I'm providing a different viewpoint, months later and a question for my edification even though the original issue has probably been long resolved because I just can't help myself. I haven't been on this site in several years but I remember nekorb's posts and the beginnings of G5 very well. Glad to see the relationship is still going strong even though there are ups and downs.

Coming back to the son-in-law, is this an acceptable American thing? Saying feck you to a FIL-like person? I understand casual relationships that are friendly and informal but my god. I think G5 behaved with unusual restraint in saying it wasn't personal following that remark. In my view, son-in-law was unpleasantly surprised and taken aback and gave a toddler level reaction by lashing out. Was G5 rude? If not, what was the reason for such a strong response? Is it common in your family to say "feck you" to each other? If so, perhaps it makes sense even though I still feel as if I've wandered into a twilight zone. These are genuine questions as I try to understand because my jaw dropped open in surprise, mostly at the lack of reaction from nekorb and everyone else in this thread.

To be clear, I'm not generally defending G5 here; threatening to leave is clearly emotional manipulation along with all the other problematic behaviour but I find myself firmly on his side only on that singular topic.

Hi everyone -

Good to see you again UB!

To answer your question in short, no it’s not normal.
That said it’s really hard to explain how the whole thing played out.

I’m going to try to give an unrelated made up example:

Everyone is preparing to leave.
SIL goes to shake G5’s hand.
G5 loudly and odiferously passes gas causing SIL to step back and give a questioning look.
G5 apologizes and says he didn’t mean to do that, his belly has just been really bloated.
SIL chuckles and says he wondered when we started communicating with each other that way and leave the house.

My interpretation of SIL’s response was he felt like G5 pulling back from the handshake was a feck you and when G5 apologized that it came off that way SIL chuckled and said yeah well feck you too - he was laughing, and that was it.

To your point, G5 commented that he’s never heard anyone in our family speak to each other that way. Now that I’m thinking about it, I wish I would have said that no one in our family also doesn’t hug each other or refuses to shake hands, but you expect my family to accept that behavior from you and not feel any sort of way about it.

You know, like when someone does something that seems really off the wall and you’re like when did we start doing THAT? They say oh no, no, no and then you respond with what your response would have been to that perceived situation.

My lord did that make sense at all??

I should couple this with my observation that G5 has conflict with more people than anyone else I’ve ever met in my entire life. He got into a shouting match with a woman at our local casino over who was going to sit in this certain spot - the dealer intervened, other people at the table were trying to diffuse it, etc. So I guess when I see him getting into conflict with people that generally seems out of proportion to the situation everything comes in through that filter, including the incident with SIL. It’s definitely something I will be bringing up. (High conflict)

My issue isn’t that I think he shouldn’t be upset, it’s that his chosen method of handling it (silent treatment) is unhealthy and in and of itself emotionally abusive. When I found out he was upset (months later) I was ready and willing to get on the phone and say something and work toward restoring peace. He did not want me to do that and instead has just held the emotions of everyone else that cares about the situation hostage over it.

This is a problem for me.

Something else that has been bothering me (and the list is getting longer as I start to unpack all of this), is that I don’t like that he was willing to take the gamble of breaking up with me, assuming that I would take him back. Maybe I’m reaching on that one just because I’m pissed off.

I got the five love languages from the library. They are holding it and I’ll pick up tomorrow.

To his credit he has been willing to do anything that I have asked so far. This week we took the apology languages quiz online and shared our results with each other.

Something I’m concerned about in the big picture is I’m afraid our core values surrounding family may be really out of alignment. I thought it was a matter of him not feeling comfortable with them and I thought it was getting better, but I’m back to feeling like I’m begging him to participate in family things that I would be bending over backwards to accommodate for any of our kids.

There’s also a lack of empathy for certain situations, but I think that may be a learning point or self awareness - aka I don’t think he realizes he comes off the way he does.

Whew. I hope this isn’t a jumbled mess. It feels jumbled in my head.

Thanks for listening and I appreciate everyone’s feedback!

Hi Nekorb! I've followed your updates, and as you further describe the dynamics with your SO, I'm wondering: is there a possibility he is somewhere on the autism spectrum? Have you guys ever done personality testing? Myers Briggs types? Testing for 'aspergers' (which is now blended in with autism spectrum)?

The lack of instinctive empathy is a tough one to deal with.

[This message edited by Superesse at 3:25 AM, Friday, March 28th]

Superesse -

So weird that you brought that up as that thought has recently been wandering through my mind re:some spectrum somewhere. But, I also wonder if he just doesn’t realize how he’s perceived when he says this or that. I’ve seriously started evaluating his behaviors against Sheldon from Big Bang to see if I would be surprised to hear xyz come out of Sheldon’s mouth.

For instance, my daughter is pregnant with her rainbow baby. ❤️❤️❤️ When she told him (She was with me, we called him), he said, "Good for you.". I’m sorry, what? It’s like he was unable to feel that joy and relief for her. Or something. Does that make sense?

Have not done Myers-Briggs. Maybe I will weave that into our activities this weekend.

Thanks to everyone for keeping up with these NOVELS I’m posting!!

So, I may have lost my shit a little bit today. I told G5 I thought we were going to make better progress if we see a counselor. I explained that I feel like I’m acting as a participant and the therapist, and that role is way outside my lane. I also cited it’s impossible for me not to be biased to my own opinions although I try to be really self aware and reflective.

He agreed to go.

I’m delighted and flabbergasted all at the same time. I cited feeling anxious about this because he has forever stated he is who is and isn’t going to change. He again stated a willingness to go.

I also addressed the topic of my ex. The short version is, he’s going to relax about it and not get worked up if the ex should talk to me, talk to him, etc. I reiterated the ex is not a threat to him and explained that G5’s nuclear response to him makes me feel as though the ex still has power over me and is affecting my life. I also explained how difficult navigating my parents divorce and their disdain for each other was for me, and that I don’t want that for my kids. Clarified I do not now nor will I ever expect him to be friends, buddies, hang out with the ex, etc.

I got some things off my chest regarding the kids and his perceptions that literally everything they think or do is somehow about him, about them not liking him, etc, and was able to provide an example of how his son interacts with me in a similar way and I don’t think twice about it and certainly don’t perceive that he doesn’t like me.

THEN, my middle daughter came over. He hung out with us for awhile, went to the gym, and came back and he and I hung out together and relaxed. We had a little more conversation, and took time outs without things getting heated.

I mean, this man is putting in effort. I don’t even know how to act! lol

I’m feeling really encouraged.

Hey gang -

I’m feeling frustrated today because I want to ask G5 if he has reached out to SIL, but I don’t feel like I can. I feel like it has become a point of power struggle, but it’s important to me that he not continue with poor behavior (silent treatment) toward SIL. I suggested if he doesn’t want to talk to SIL yet, even a simple "Thanks for reaching out I’ll let you know when I’m ready to talk" is an appropriate response and still maintains the boundary that he wants to enforce.

I’ve been trying to find a counselor with Saturday hours without much luck so far.

Just breathing in and out and reminding myself that this is a process.

G5 made a comment today that something has to improve soon. I’m concerned his expectations for resolving issues and/or improving on years of a certain communication pattern may be unrealistic.

IDK. We will see what happens.

What do you interpret he meant by "something has to improve?" What thing(s)? With whom? Sounds rather like a growl before the bite, in dog language. I'd be wary. Or disconnect altogether from his need for drama? Sorry he is muttering such stuff....

nekorb,

You posted earlier that he doesn’t like drama.

Not buying it.

But beyond that, I wonder if he’s reluctant to invest in your family because he’s insecure about how invested you two are.

Hi everyone. Just a little update.

Superesse - I don’t really know what it is that’s supposed to improve or what soon means. There’s been no movement on the issue with my son in law, and I’m disappointed about that. I’ve pointed out that his chosen method for dealing with this is unhealthy and could be construed as abusive and it made no difference. Idk.

I also agree about the drama thing and I’ve brought this up to him in the past. He does not see that he is creating drama *for everyone else*. Or refuses to see it.

In any case - he remains willing to go to counseling together. I reached out to my EAP at work to see what our options are. We can do six sessions with someone for free. Idk if six will be enough, honestly, but it’s a start.

I’ll be interested to see what happens if the couples counselor suggests IC for both of us. I intend to go anyway to see if I can get this depression to improve. I also need some help deciphering what is happening in our relationship. I’m feeling very confused and afraid I’m losing objectivity.

My anxiety has been triggered as I’m seeing a pattern here that is similar to what happened with the ex when he decided to leave:

Asks me "what it looks like" if I ask him to leave the house - ie how long will he have to find somewhere to live
*Asks me if I want to see other people (this may have been his own anxiety)
Asks me again what the timeline is if he has to leave the house.
Breaks up with me
We get back together
*Says he will go to counseling with me
Starts sleeping in another room (he’s back)
*Zero intimacy

*starred items are same scenario with the ex. Kind of glad I put the list here, as it’s not as many items as I was telling myself it was.

Items similar to when he broke up with his ex, per his report

*sleeping in another room
*going out for solo activities to avoid being home with her
*zero intimacy

We are both having trouble connecting to each other rn, I think. Just this weird limbo of waiting to get with a counselor and not being able to talk about things that are bothering us because we are sucking at fighting fair.

I’m also still really pondering that question about there being a spectrum involved…

So that where we are this week.

Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend if you celebrate.

UGH Nekorb. This is describing something you have kinda lived through before, to my reading of it. Thus you have the smarts and experience behind you to guide you, not like you never went down this road before... Just getting to the stuck point in the middle of the road, between continuing the relationship or going separate ways, and deciding to punt and compromise by seeking outside opinions (MC/IC) but deep down, this is too damn familiar.

You know you don't owe this relationship that level of effort, unless you really, really want the effort. Doesn't sound like whzt you signed up for....

Sorry. Seek your peace Elsewhere this Hioy Weekend.

Hi everyone -

Superesse - the easiest response to your last post is "pretty much".

We had a pretty good weekend last weekend, actually.

This weekend was my son’s big deal graduation with his big deal degree that the entire family was together for, NPD ex included. We travelled out of town for this event.

To his credit, G5 did so much better with socializing with folks, met my kids’ stepmom (and so did I - she’s very nice, it went fine) than he did the last time everyone was together (my daughters wedding 6 years ago). That said, he actively avoided my ex who clearly wanted to introduce himself, which I thought was immature (of G5), but we were in a state of compromise so I let it go and said nothing and tried to facilitate keeping distance between them when I was able.

Cue G5 asking me later if he did ok, which I was not prepared for (because he isn’t being graded and I’m not keeping score) and so I hesitated before responding and then he went ahead and he filled the space with all of my supposed complaints (of which I expressed NONE).

The next day there were more events, including the MAIN event and then we took pictures afterwards as a group, then we’re heading home (3hr drive) and taking my middle daughter home with us (long distance for her to drive alone).

Anyway - G5 was clearly just ready to be home at that point and pissy in the car with me AND my daughter, which pissed me off. Be made or irritated with me or whatever, but don’t take it out on her.

I think he knows he fucked that up. He’s been weird with me today. I haven’t said anything because I don’t feel like I can have a productive conversation about it at this point.

I feel like when he asks me "how he did" it isn’t because he’s looking to improve, he’s seeing what the bare minimum is that he can give and make me happy.

The good news is we’ve both signed the needed forms to start counseling together. Will see what happens there. I need to start some IC.

I’m remembering that phrase "if you are afraid to tell people what’s going on in your house, it’s a warning.". I’m not afraid for my safety by any stretch, I’m afraid I don’t want to hear what others would have to say.

I really didn’t see us having these struggles when I envisioned us living together. It’s been hard.

Thanks for tagging along this journey with me.

Well, you certainly have acquired enough data points to paint a pretty clear picture of the negative aspect of his personality.

For some reason your journey reminds me of mine with my purebred German Shepherd boy I imported from The Czech Republic...top bloodlines, a grandson of the 2019 World Champion Schutzhund Working Dog trials (would be like his grandsire was the Secretariat of the dog sports world). They do all the genetic testing American breeders usually don't bother with, they have every sire and dam rated by the international breed organization as either breed-worthy or exceptional, another thing we don't do here in the States...I was just so confident that this time, I was going to end up with a top notch puppy, one that would not likely develop any of those dreaded genetic German Shepherd illnesses that bankrupt owners and break hearts.

So he arrived in our life 2 years ago, a precious cargo at the airport. Ball of cuddly fluff and all that. Looked us right in the eyes, all confident. What a great puppy!

First thing we noticed is: he came wired with a fiery little spark that could sometimes ignite if we played a little too hard with him. Suddenly, he'd get this impish look in his little eyes and chomp on your hand with his needle teeth! OWWW. We howled and bled enough times that he gradually learned "bite inhibition," but "mouthing" is a known trait of German Shepherds. With the ones that are bred for sport like his family lines, the breeders brag about their "full, hard bites" on the "bad guys" which is why law enforcement uses the breed. Okay....so we knew that all puppies nip....

Fast forward to a year later and male hormones kicking in: his bark deepens and becomes menacing-sounding and staccato any time he doesn't get what he thinks he deserves - not that we consciously spoiled him, or anything...😙 And he still wants to "play fight" with the leash....he also loves springing up like a giraffe to get things up high. Tons of energy! "Hey, he is a working line, high drive dog, what did you expect when you imported that kind of dog?" Asked our puppy trainer. So we take him to have him evaluated for sport here and two different trainers get excited when they try out such a naturally spunky pup...but not us, so much. Especially after second dog trainer/breeder told us our boy doesn't so much resemble his World Champion grandsire on his sire's side as much as he seems like his grandsire on his dam's side - who was known in the dog sport world for having a dangerous level of "handler aggression" and one day, just turned on his owner and tried to kill him, leading the owner to kick his dog off him in self-defense, which caused internal bleeding and the dog died! This man told us "I would never want to breed any dog with that sire in his bloodlines." He told us this before he evaluated my puppy and still liked his spunk. Go figure.

Hearing that shook us up. What happened to my tiny little fluff ball? Who still likes to roll over on his back on the floor and paddle the air and my hands, as he gazes baby-like into my eyes, knowing he is melting my heart? Well, I have to understand: I chose me a difficult dog. The old Lab/Shepherd Wonder dog we lost 3 years ago ain't coming back, and clearly he didn't leave any instructions for this kid!

So we've got to accept that we have a handful of potential issues on our hands if we choose to keep this boy. We have to handle him with expensive and continued training, daily discipline, and we can never let him get the idea he is Boss Doggo (He already came wired to think THAT!) Such a job I didn't realize I was signing up for. There are days, like after the 80 pound muscle pup playfully rakes my bare arm with his toenails, and I'm dripping blood all the way to the house, that I ask myself if I need to find him a home where his antics would not be my problem or responsibility. But yet, he is basically sweet and we are so bonded by that first rush of puppy love that it would break my heart, too. Even though I could relax a bit!

Any of this resonate with you?

Superesse - it’s kind of an expectations vs reality thing, I think. Your situation as well as mine.

The evening was tense but we did sit together and watch tv. I’m going to choose to interpret that as effort on his part, as I’m sure he would have rather gone to his man cave and had some space from me, but knows I need the reassurance of proximity.

Something I need to do for myself going forward is to make sure I’m not begging for attention. I feel a bit like I’m doing that and I’m being rejected, so I need to get that in check. Example: I go to hold his hand on the couch and wrap my hand around a couple of his fingers. He does nothing. Does not pull away, does not return a squeeze, does not acknowledge it, etc. I’m unclear if he’s setting a boundary that he isn’t interested in touch right now or if it’s a measure of a way for him to exert power/control. Either way, it doesn’t feel good and I need to stop it and find another way to soothe my anxiety about the situation.

He did come in and say goodnight when I went to bed, but there was no eye contact, etc. He is now in his man cave.

I hope we don’t have to wait long to get established with a counselor. I do feel like the 6 free sessions I have through my EAP won’t be enough, but we will see.

We are just communicating like shit buckets rn.

In other news, we had a trip planned the week after Mothers Day that we had already cancelled for different reasons. I thought we were altering the plans, in his mind we cancelled it and he’s not even sure he has the time off and basically said he doesn’t want to go anywhere with things the way they are anyway. I lost my shit - crying. I have been looking forward to getting away with him for months. We travel well together, it’s always a positive experience. If you recall, I started a new job 3 months ago after the initial "breaking up" incident and I haven’t had a break from work since.

I decided today I am going to go and do SOMETHING and I will do it on my own. I told him that today and got accused of trying to guilt him into going. I reiterated that I have been looking forward to some time off, thought if nothing else we could go things around town together, but assured him I will be just fine on my own.

No idea what I’m going to do, but I’ll figure it out.